Speaker 0

Hey, everyone. This is Jamie. You are in for a treat today. We have back on the show with us. Kevin Dahlstrom. Kevin was on the show before I highly recommend you listen to that first episode with Kevin. On that one, we we dove a lot into his backstory and a lot of the adversity he faced growing up and and some health challenges he's been through and his midlife crisis that he faced and how he navigated all of that. In this one, we really dive more into a lot of the the businesses that he's started and exited from. We walked through four different startups that he's had, and he just he shares so much wisdom along the way. He's only about five years older than I am, and I just feel like he's got, like, thirty years more worth of knowledge than I do, to be honest. He just spews wisdom. He's a very, very intentional guy, and he just has a fantastic life. I mean, he he admits that. He loves what he does every day. He wakes up and just enjoys life, but it's not been easy all the time to get here. He's he's enjoying the fruits of his labor. And his intentionality and the compounding effect of a lot of the things he's done over the years, a lot of his habits, In in today's episode, we dive into the four different exits Kevin has had with companies. And so we start back in his mid twenties, and then he's We finish up with Swell, which is his most recent exit. So we we dive into his first one, which was a fifteen million dollar startup, which was a big failure. And we talk a lot about how he responded to that and how his response played a pivotal role in in the trajectory of his financial future in his career, and just kind of navigating the mental side of the ups and downs of entrepreneurship along the way. Talk a lot about community and partnership and teamwork and how he's someone who has strong ideas loosely held. There's so much more to unpack that I can't do justice here in this intro, you're just gonna have to press keep listening. This one's fantastic.

Speaker 1

Welcome to the from adversity to abundance podcast. Are you an entrepreneur or aspiring entrepreneur? Then this show is for you. Each week, we bring you impactful stories of real people who have overcome painful human adversity to create a life of abundance. A life of abundance. You are not alone in your struggle. Join us, and you will experience the power of true stories and gained practical knowledge from founders who have turned poverty into prosperity and weakness into wealth. This podcast will encourage you through your health, relationship, and financial challenges so you can become the hero in your quest for freedom. Take ownership of the life you are destined to live. Turn your adversity into abundance.

Speaker 0

Welcome everybody to another episode of the from adversity to abundance podcast. I am your host, Jamie bateman, and I'm Super pumped today to have with us Kevin Dahlstrom. Kevin is, actually, our second return guest on the show. So I'm I'm thrilled to have Kevin. Kevin, how are you doing today?

Speaker 2

Doing good. Hey, Jamie. Excited to chat. Enjoyed our last chat a few months ago and ready to go again.

Speaker 0

Yeah. And for for the listener out there, we're not gonna go too far into Kevin's backstory, but I highly, highly, highly recommend you listen to the first episode we did with with Kevin, which, I think Kevin, you've you you said, out on the Twitterosphere somewhere that the that was the most comprehensive, I guess, rendition or story, tell a version of your your your history that's out there. Is that fair to say?

Speaker 2

Yeah. We went deep I mean, look, we're all a product of our upbringing. So it was fun to talk about sort of my upbringing and how it influenced who I am today. So Yeah. Yeah. I listen to that episode if you haven't folks.

Speaker 0

Yeah. Absolutely. And and I I failed to say Kevin is a serial entrepreneur, founder, And and, very good rock climber as well, and we may touch on that a little bit. But, but, definitely listen to that the first episode. We we went deep as you say, Kevin. We talked, about some your your upbringing and some, you know, maybe relationship challenges and also some health struggles that I know you had as well. And then we we got up to you know, we talked a lot about your, quote, unquote, midlife crisis where you left, Texas and moved to Colorado And not only that, quit your job, turn down a lot of money, and, you know, and and really change things in in your entire life as far as, you know, all kinds of things. Yeah.

Speaker 2

Yeah. No. Yeah. I mean, look, the the the the quick summary of my background for folks who who haven't listened to that last episode. So I was born and raised in Texas, had most of my career in Texas, And, you know, I, came from a pretty pretty tough upbringing. And, what that left me with was just a huge desire to to to have something different. And so I was the classic, you know, kinda put my head down and and, you know, you know, grind and, worked my way up the corporate ladder. And what ultimately happened, you know, made it all the way to my forties and ultimately realized I had built a life that looked really great on paper, you know, like big house in the suburbs, beautiful family, you know, job, you know, seven figure job, whatever, But, it wasn't me. I was playing the role of some other guy who wasn't me. And so I did something that I think very few people do, but more people should do, which is I pulled the play. I sort of rebooted everything, moved my family to Boulder Colorado, which is where I live now. Rock climbing, as you mentioned, played a huge role. I I like to be outdoors. And so Boulder is heaven on earth. It's like a an adult playground if you're into the outdoors. That was five years ago. And, you know, from a career standpoint, I think one, you know, if if there's any claim to fame that I have, it's it's that I've I've had a unique career in the sense that I've always had one foot in two worlds. So I am a a multiple time founder with multiple exits, founded four companies and I joke I've hit for the cycle. Like, I've had everything from spectacular strike outs all the way through one company went went public, but I've also, through that process ended up working for a couple of big public companies as the chief marketing officer. And, and so I have experience on on sort of both sides And it's it's actually interesting how how, you know, how each informs the other. You learn different lessons when you're, you know, working for a big organization versus, you know, starting in in the proverbial garage in a startup. So, that's kind of the quick synopsis. I I I have my wife and I have been married for twenty six years. I have two, daughters, sixteen and eighteen years old, about to lose my first daughter to college. She's headed to New York, exactly one month from now. Okay. So I'm kind of at this. I'm at an interesting stage of of life. Oh, and by the way, I just recently sold my latest startup, which is was called Swell, the fintech startup. It was a nice exit. And, as a result of that, I'm, you know, the one of the roles that that didn't make the transition to the acquirer was the CEO who who was me, And so as of May thirty first, which is as we record this is what a month and a half ago, I'm not in a full time operating role. Honestly, for the first time in, in, like, thirty years. I'm not really in a full time operating role. The irony is, Jamie, I've been busier than ever. It's insane. Is that I've always got a lot of things going on on the side, and I'm I'm, of course, you know, doing a bunch of things. But but it has been kinda great to just for a little bit you know, not be in, like, day to day, your trench warfare.

Speaker 0

The the grind. Yeah. Absolutely. No. I I've just listened to another podcast you were just on. I think you reference the fact that you'll probably never retire. You're not really a retiring type person. But, yeah, you don't you're you're a you're a doer, mean, you're you're an active active guy.

Speaker 2

Well, look, my whole shtick, if you follow me on Twitter at all, is the concept of retirement becomes, at least, like, what what we traditionally consider retirement to be kind of becomes absurd if you instead focus on just building the life you want now. And so I reached a point, unfortunately, through a lot of work and luck, I reached a point years ago where, I my every day is I I do things that I choose to do. Now, it's never perfect. Right? There's always some degree of of grind no matter what you do, even if you are, you know, quote, unquote, retired. But once you designed a life and and and implemented a life that, is, you know, just the way you wanna spend your days anyway, then the concept of retirement sort sorta starts to become moot.

Speaker 0

Yeah. Absolutely. I just love the whole I mean, I highly recommend the listener follow you on Twitter, everything you put out is just well thought out, well articulated, and it's just it's just so I don't know. It's you got the long term view, but it's also very practical. And, you know, people can take action right away. But as far as just, I just also have to give you, you know, kudos for You know, people might say, oh, well, he it's easy to walk away from a million dollar a year plus job or whatever, you know, because, I mean, he he had all this money. Well, it's also really hard to turn down this massive paycheck that's coming in in two weeks. So, I mean, I've never been in that position, that exact position. I have quit my w two as well, but but I I that's that that that I think would be very difficult to to do. So I just I I think that's a just that whole mindset and and actually taking action on on taking ownership of of your life is really what what you did. I just, that a lot of respect for media. Yeah.

Speaker 2

I mean, what what and there's certainly some truths to the fact that, you know, once you've accumulated some wealth, you know, it's a little bit easier to make bold moves,

Speaker 0

Sure.

Speaker 2

But still, I mean, I think the lessons apply to any age. And I I just posted something on Twitter, actually, this morning, saying you know, the old saying the world belongs to the bold is just so incredibly true. And often being bold just means, you know, taking little tiny steps like asking for something you want or taking a baby step toward a goal, or sometimes it means making really big moves like I did, years ago when I sort of rebooted my life, and it's, you know, it's scary. No matter where you sit on the wealth spectrum, it's scary. I mean, I walked away from a some that was well into the eight figures, just so your listeners kinda get a sense of that. It would've it's, you know, it it was it was not, it was a very meaningful chunk of my potential future wealth. Sure. But, you know, ultimately, you know, I'm fifty two years old. And back then, I was, you know, in my mid forties. And, you know, I truly believe it's it's it's it's often said, and it starts to sound like a cliche, but it really is true that time is our most valuable asset. And so the real question is, are you gonna spend your time? Of course, we have to pay the bills. But I think it turns out when people actually go through the exercise of thinking about in an ideal world how they would spend their time, each day, it turns out that most of that stuff doesn't require that you be worth ten million dollars. You know, you can, because Ultimately, life is about the most meaningful things in life, our relationships and experiences, and, neither of those things tend to cost a lot.

Speaker 0

Absolutely. I love that perspec perspective. That's awesome. And I and I've also wanna quickly mention your your podcast, Kevin, which is called compounding. Right?

Speaker 2

Yes. So, it's the compounding podcast. You can find it. I think it's compounding pod dot com or on YouTube. And, It's a it's a labor of love. I I'm take take it a different direction than most podcasts. One is that I'll only do a podcast when I find a guest that I think is truly exceptional. So as a result of that, I've only done, like, seven episodes, with the past year I also fly out to wherever my my guest is. I'll fly out and do it live. Just because I think it's a little bit different dynamic live. So recommend you check it out. It's, I've got I've had some fantastic guests. My most recent one was, maybe my favorite. It was Carissa Moore, who is arguably the, you know, the she's definitely the best female surfer of all time, arguably the top surfer in the world, men, or woman right now, and just an amazing human being. So, lot of life lessons from that podcast.

Speaker 0

That's awesome. Yeah. I'll I'll give you my address so you can fly fly into BWI. Now I'm I'm kidding. I'm just joking, but yeah. So let's what we're gonna focus on today, Kevin, as we talked about before we hit record is we you're navigating kind of the mental aspects of the ups and downs of entrepreneurship. And I know you founded four companies, as you mentioned. I don't know when the the first one was. So let's let's just dive in. What was the first company you started and and what what did that look like?

Speaker 2

Yeah. The first one, so I've been at it for a long time. So this spans a lot of years.

Speaker 0

Sure.

Speaker 2

The first company I started was a an e commerce company back in nineteen ninety nine. So those of you that are old enough to remember the original dot com boom, or wet one point o, And, it was a classic sort of, you know, venture capital backed soft software startup. And, you know, the, just to kinda jump ahead to the punch line. This was the spectacular failure that I referenced earlier. It was my first startup. I was in my mid twenties. And, you know, in some ways looking back on it, it was insane that to to think about how little I knew how how immature I was, yet, you know, we were handed you know, fifteen million dollars to go start this company. And, you know, they always say, like, you know, you don't learn, you know, many lessons from your successes. But you sure learn from your failures and, you know, so so, you know, I get I guess, even though that you know, without getting into all the the details because we could spend a whole podcast talking about that one company. Sure. But, but, you know, the one of the lessons I took away from that is is, you know, that mindset is is everything. And and, you know, I when when that company failed, it was a very tough period. For for me and my co founder. And, we actually, we reacted to that failure very differently. And I think had a big impact. The way we reacted to that failure had a big impact over on the the next few years for both of us. It was an interesting sort of AB test I guess I'm fundamentally an optimist. So even in the moment, I chose to view it as, a lesson And, a lot of, you know, I called it my MBA on steroids because in a literal sense, you know, I I decided to start that company instead of going to business school. I've you know, I'd been accepted to several of the top business schools. Was excited about that. We ended up starting this company instead. And, boy, I think I learned a lot more starting that company and ultimately failing that I would have in business school, but I think it's the way you choose to frame things has everything to do with you know, with how it impacts the the rest of your life. And so these are, you know, your mindset is super important.

Speaker 0

No. That's really good. So you'd yeah. I was gonna ask that the for more context, you said mid twenty. So I'm assuming you were you were out out of college at that point. So you hadn't gotten a had you ever had a quote unquote real job? You know, have you started your professional career or was this the very start of it?

Speaker 2

I had. So I count came out of college and went into management consulting with one of the big firms. And I realized very quickly that was not for me. Even though I I did learn a lot, it was it was kind of cool and felt glamorous at the time that, it it was very unfulfilling. And I looked at the partners the top guys on the food chain

Speaker 0

--

Speaker 2

Mhmm. -- and they were unhappy, unhealthy, working harder than anyone. And I and I guess I'll just take this opportunity to say, you know, one thing that I guess was I was always wired a little bit differently than my peers in the sense that I never accepted this notion that you have to choose between having a great career and a great life. I don't know where that came from, but I will tell you back in those days, like, late nineties, early two thousands, like, there was no talk about, like, work life balance or lifestyle. Like, you literally get laughed out of the office. Yeah. That's okay. Stuff up. But I always was like, no. I I actually think, you do better work when you have a happier, healthier, healthier life. And so, that that was one of the things that drove me away early on from consulting and, and led to me, my me and a a a friend of mine, starting this first business was just that, like, that corporate life just didn't seem, you know, especially in the consulting world, just didn't seem conducive. To the overall life that I wanted to build.

Speaker 0

Yeah. I love that. That's awesome. And then now I I I understand you. The the big lesson was how you responded to that adversity. But looking back, you know, what could you have done differently? Should you have chosen a different partner? Hopefully, he doesn't listen to this, but I'm I'm just kidding, but -- No.

Speaker 2

It wasn't bad.

Speaker 0

-- as far as just kind of, you know, maybe for the listener out out there who's thinking of starting a business or starting their next next project. You know, what could you have done differently in setting up that business or operating that business?

Speaker 2

Yeah. And and, before I answer that, I have to just, make a caveat that, you know, all of my experience has been and basically venture capital funded tech businesses. So that's a very different ball game than bootstrapping, you know, a small business as an individual. It's just like the expectations, the pace. Everything's different. And so, but I think some of the lessons do translate. And and, you'd you'd mentioned before this that was a topic you might wanna discuss. So I was thinking about it last night. And I will tell you, Jamie, one thing over my career that I have been just blown away by and and come to believe more and more strongly is the role of luck. And, you know, mean, clearly, we have an influence on the outcomes of the businesses we're involved in, businesses we start. But, you know, being in the right place at the right time is everything. And so I I've got a great example of that because, you know, I do a lot of, real estate investing. And so, I've done it for, you know, fifteen plus years. And I have a lot of friends. So and I'm just, by the way, I'm a passive investor. I just invest as the as a limited partner But I've got a lot of friends who started real estate private equity firms, right after the great financial crisis. So it might, like, maybe around twenty ten, they started a real estate And they just did it because that was a time when it it made sense to start a company. They had come out of college or whatever. And They are they're smart people, hard workers, but the reality is from twenty ten to twenty twenty one or so, it was like shooting fish in a barrel. Like, you couldn't miss in real estate.

Speaker 0

Sure. And so

Speaker 2

what happened was a lot of these guys who who might have been successful anyway What it did was it magnified their success a hundred x. I mean, I know I've more than one friend who made north of a hundred million dollars in that time period. Which is just absurd, but it speaks to just like being without really, you know, even knowing it at the time, being in the exact right place, the exact right time. And so I think these external forces have a huge influence. I often refer to luck as the multiplier. So, like, You know, maybe it it's, like, not ultimately the number one determinant deterrent. Although, I think that's you could debate that. It certainly determines, like, the magnitude of the outcome. And, and so that that's one lesson. The other lesson is, you know, and this is a a more specific to to venture backed startups where you actually have meaningful capital to go start your business is, to act like you didn't raise that money. Right? And so, like, you have ten million bucks in the bank, which allows you to do all kinds of cool things. Like, you can hire, people. You can have a cool office space here, whatever you wanna do. But but I think what happens in a lot of cases is you kinda get ahead of yourself. And, and and I think in the early days, there's a friend of mine named Will, who's a, one of the smartest venture capitalists I know. And he talks a lot about, like, when you start a company like that, you should try to do this absolute simplest experiment you can to determine whether the the market is receptive to whatever it is you're building, whether you have product markets fit. And often what founders tend to do. It's a it's a it's a temptation. It's like you do a lot of building before you get to market. And and, you know, ultimately, customers and revenue are truth. Right? And so you need to get to that truth as soon as humanly possible. You know, the minimum viable product product concept is very relevant here. And so that's, you know and unfortunately, it's a weird thing. Like, I've actually had to learn that lesson the hard way a couple times. And a lot of entrepreneurs say the same thing. It's like, it's that temptation when you have money. It it can actually become a negative. Yeah, when you have the the, you know, when you have the resources, but you haven't proven out your product yet, that can become a conflict.

Speaker 0

Got it. No. That's that's really good stuff. So you you you said essentially that you and your co founder, kind of re responded, reacted differently to the adversity you went through with that failure. How did that look and and how did that move you to your next venture?

Speaker 2

Yeah. And I'll say just to add a little color to that. I think the because this is gonna be a good insight I think for your listeners about how to think about their career. I think when my partner, he took it deeply personal when that company failed. And he truly viewed it as just an abject failure. And in some ways, yeah, that's hard to deny. But but the way that I think the the better way to look at it and what I advise to everyone is think of your career as a portfolio If you try a bunch of things in your career, if you're doing bold things, you will not bat one thousand. Like, this is impossible. You will have successes. You will have failures. So think about it over the long course of time. Think of your career as, like, thirty, forty years. And think of it as, like, you're gonna have some ups. You're gonna have some downs. But take what I call a portfolio view. It's like investing. Right? If you invest in one stock, that stock may be successful or it may fail, but if you invest in a basket of stocks, you take a portfolio view and some will some will win, some will lose, but on the whole, you're gonna do fine. Sure.

Speaker 0

And I

Speaker 2

think, that's kinda how I, you know, I was innately sort of wired that way, I guess. I viewed it as, like, well, we failed here. We learned a lot of lessons. We did the right things, you know, to the best of our ability.

Speaker 0

And so

Speaker 2

we're just gonna move on and do something else now.

Speaker 0

And Yeah. Sounds like there was a lot outside of your control. Right? And but you you just Always,

Speaker 2

there's always a lot of and look, you know, I don't mean to say that you you know, there's plenty of, I I had plenty of, made plenty of mistakes, owned plenty of default for the failure of the business. But, you know, those are those are the most valuable lessons is when you see something clearly that you could have done differently. You just don't repeat that. And if you stay at it, if you learn if you learn from your mistakes and you stay at it long enough, you will have some some successes. Now I also tell people, like, If you've, you said something before we started recording that, I wrote down because I think it's it's so freaking true Look, starting a business isn't for everyone.

Speaker 0

Right. Absolutely. In fact,

Speaker 2

I would I would go so far as to say starting a business isn't for ninety five percent of people, maybe ninety nine percent of people. Because it is a tough road. A lot of heartache lies down that road. It's not as glamorous as it seems from the outside. And you will have to deal inevitably, you'll probably have to deal with with failure So I think that's a big thing for people to to consider is there's nothing at all wrong with having a great career in a nine to five job. Yeah. And there's a there's a way to build a great life around that. It's just that, you know, I I think the, Elon Musk had an incredible quote about, entrepreneurism. And, he was he was giving a talk to some I think it was, like, an MBA class or something. And one of the students raised his hand and said, you know, how do you how do you start a business? And Elon's response was if you have to ask, it's not for you. Start a business. It has to be something you can't not do. It has to be just an itch you have to scratch.

Speaker 0

Sure.

Speaker 2

Otherwise, and and goes back to another saying I like, which is, like, it's one of the things that has to be either Hell Yes or no. If you're sort of, like, on the fence, the answer is no.

Speaker 0

Sure. I love that. And I love that all of this just long term and big picture perspective, not only just the career of, you know, this is one failure, one one project in my long career of, of work, but also this is only my career. And that fits in my whole life. So if you kinda zoom out at times, you're not always zoomed out, but if you zoom out and see, like, this is this is just one little blip You know? That's right.

Speaker 2

Mike, well, and just sorry to interrupt, but I think it's an important point to make, especially for men who tend to We tend to allow our work to become our identity, and that's a very dangerous path because, you know, work is, you know, an important, but it's only one part of your life. And, they're they're equally important other other pieces. So, I think you have to be really deliberate about what you allow your identity to to become.

Speaker 0

Love that. Yeah. So so mentally, when you, you know, you it sounds like you you kept things in in perspective right away. Tell us about your second. How did you transition into your second venture? Did you go? The other thing I wanted to point out, it just came to me, was that, you know, you life can have seasons. Right? It's okay to doesn't mean you you have to be a serial entrepreneur and never have a w two. I we've had guests on who were an entrepreneur for twenty years, and then they became a w two. I mean, that's there's nothing wrong with that either. So maybe don't put this this big pressure on yourself as an individual to define at age twenty two, am I an entrepreneur or a or am I an employee, you know, the it's okay to switch things up. Absolutely.

Speaker 2

I'm a living example of that. I mean, I've bounced back and forth between the corporate world and entrepreneurism multiple times in my career. So that's absolutely true.

Speaker 0

So tell us about the second second startup. How did that go?

Speaker 2

Well, in the in the wake of, that first startup, you know, and this is another sort of piece of advice I'd give, like, when I think when you when you try something entrepreneurial and it doesn't work, I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to jump right back into the fray. I think there's covery period. And so I often recommend, like, I always say I've told many people this, like, in the wake of, like, a an entrepreneurial venture that didn't work out as you hoped, attach yourself to a rocket ship. In other words, like, attach yourself to a company that's already got momentum. Because you need to relearn what it feels like to have momentum to get some wins under your belt. And so that Without without really being intentional about it, I ended up doing that multiple times in my career. And eventually, I observed in hindsight. It was like, oh, wow. That's an it's an incredible way because the the intensity is different and just the, you know, the level of stress is is different when when you're a w two, when you're working for somebody else. And that doesn't mean you're, like, you can't work hard. You're not working hard. You're doing great work. All that stuff. It's just it's just different than when an entire company is on your shoulder.

Speaker 0

Shoulder. Absolutely.

Speaker 2

Yeah. It's a, you know, it's just a knife fight, day to day. So I, you know, throughout my career, I flip flop back and forth. And, you know, some of the other startups companies I've started, I did take more of a a little bit more of a bootstrap approach. Mhmm. Like, we we in each case, we did raise money, but smaller amounts, what really aimed at building companies that could get profitable very quickly

Speaker 0

Sure.

Speaker 2

So I started, like, an an ad tech firm that, we ultimately sold. And, and then, you know, I I got lucky and was able to be, you know, essentially one of the founders of a, an online lending company that we grew from from zero to six hundred million or so in revenue, so an incredible success story. The company ultimately went public, then went back private. But That that's really, you know, probably my, you know, that that was about a ten year run. And that was probably my my most successful entrepreneurial venture was, you know, growing a business from essentially nothing to becoming a pretty big, successful, profitable company Yeah. And then and then after sorry. Go ahead.

Speaker 0

Oh, no. I was gonna say, so for the listener who maybe has a w two, and they're thinking about starting a side And I understand venture capital is different than than a than a bootstrap company, but we're we're I guess what would you say to the to the listener out there who you know, should I start us, side hustle? Should I just jump and go all? And I guess it gets to the Elon Musk answer as well. But But, looking back when you were because you're I mean, you're you're a great person to ask this too is is because you switched back and forth so many times. Should you do a side house? Should you do do both at the same time? Should I just pick one or the other? How what do you how would you frame that answer?

Speaker 2

So, I wrote something about this pretty recently. There's a hugely mistaken notion out there that you have to sort of bet it all to start a business. And I that is absolutely not true. If you look at the smartest, most successful people, They, they take they make what I call asymmetric bets, meaning that, they're actually taking surprisingly, little risk, in whatever they do, but their upside is unlimited. And, you know, what are the ways that you mitigate that risk. Right? So so the classic story, right, is, like, I left my w two. I invested all my savings in this thing. I ran up all my credit cards to their limit. And the problem is that makes for a great story when the outcome is success, but the problem is nine out of ten, the outcome is not success. And it's disastrous. It can take years if not decades or rest of your life to recover from that. So I think one thing I would urge anybody who's, you know, contemplating starting a new business is to make the opportunity as asymmetric as possible. How do you make you know, how do you contain the risk while not impacting your upside Well, one is that's that's why entrepreneurs raise money. Right? And so that's, you know, one of the big reasons I've chosen to raise money for all of my ventures, you can share the risk with others who are willing to they understand the risk and they're willing to share it with you because they see, the upside as well. The other is is simple things like you know, when you start a business, make sure that you've got, your personal finances are in order so that, you know, you're not having so that the even if it fails, it's not disastrous. You know, it could be as simple as having a year in in, in savings or whatever. Or choose your opportunity based on, you know, you don't have to pull a rabbit out of a hat to make it work, you know, choose a a business that is already proven. Where you don't have to do anything necessarily super novel, to make it work. And so that, you know, I would I think that's the number one lens I would look at it through. I would encourage people to look at it through is, is this an asymmetric opportunity?

Speaker 0

Sure. No. And those are really good ways to mitigate that risk that you just listed there. That's that's awesome. This okay. So the sounds like the third of your four ventures was was the the home run. Right?

Speaker 2

Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I guess, you know, I've I've sold a few, but, yeah, that the, you know, in terms of, like, starting a company and then having it go really big, that was definitely the biggest success story.

Speaker 0

That's awesome. And and just for a little bit of more context with relation to your own life and family and everything like that, when when was this in in your life?

Speaker 2

So this was when this company when I when I joined this company, it was in two thousand and five. And the reason I know that is because we, in that and this is a great example of, like, taking bold steps, you know, the world belongs to the bold. Mhmm. When I joined that company, it was it required a relocation

Speaker 0

We

Speaker 2

had just had our first baby. Our our first child was three months old. And I was taking a big new job and stepping into the unknown, you know, to helps, you know, kind of build this company. And so the we did, you know, called it the big three. And, so that was kind of the life situation at the time. Sure. And so, you know, we were we were all in. And, you know, that was definitely a period of how, like, like, look, when your when your kids are young, when you're trying to make something happen in your career, there's no avoiding the fact that you have to be heads down and just grind for a while. Absolutely. And, you know, people one one mistake a lot of people make on Twitter is they see my life today, which, you know, I I will say I have a kick ass life

Speaker 0

for sure.

Speaker 2

But what they're seeing is the end product. They're not seeing the process and the work it took to get there, you know, the literally decades of work it took to get there. So you mentioned this idea of seasons of life, and I'm a big advocate of that. It's like embrace each season for what it is. And, you know, when you're look, when your kids are young and you're trying to make something happen in your career, that that season is just it's a season where you're you're working hard, like, you're grinding. It can be tough. Sure. That's true. And then, you know, but recognize that it is a season and and it it and it not only should come to an end, but it it has to come to an end if you wanna have a great life.

Speaker 0

Absolutely. Yeah. I can

Speaker 2

I always like to say, like, At the end of the day, hard work is undefeated? And so, like, there's, you know, we a lot of talk these days about lifestyle and balance and blah blah blah, but the reality is getting ahead takes really hard work. Now you can put that in the context. Like, again, if you take that portfolio view, that's just the season of life. Yeah. And you're and and you're building towards something that is, you know, that is different and better down the road.

Speaker 0

Well, how do you navigate? Because you you've obviously done a great job of of looking at the big picture, looking at the long term, taking a long term portfolio view of your life, not just your career, but it but but then but seems like you're always living in the moment as well. Right? And and so how do you personally navigate that? Those two once a week, look at the big picture, and then the rest of the time live in the moment, or how do you navigate that?

Speaker 2

No. I'll tell you the, this is my opportunity to start plugging rock climbing. But, you know, I, was introduced to to rock climbing by a friend of mine in twenty two, under two thousand. Sorry. So it was, like, right in the wake of that first startup when we failed. Yeah. You serendipitously got introduced to rock climbing. I fell in love with it immediately. What I'll say is rock climbing, you know, and and there's multiple there's other hobbies that are like this. It, it spoke to me beyond just being a form of exercise. I thought it was an incredible blend of, like, physical challenge and mental challenge. It takes you to amazing places, but most of all, the community was amazing because in that community, it's a community where no one cares what your title is. No one cares how much money you make. And I'll the reason I bring this up as an answer to your question is It really changed my life in a very profound way because I realized, oh, here's something else that I can build an identity in. That that, at the end of the day, if, if my business fails, I can still go rock climbing. And and

Speaker 0

That's an excellent point. Yeah.

Speaker 2

Yes. So I I preach a lot about this, and I call it being multidimensional. And what I mean by multidimensional is there are multiple facets to your life where your identity resides. And again, men much more than women, women are better at this, but men tend to tie their identity, ninety percent of it is tied to their work. And I'll tell you, even if you're wildly successful that becomes a problem, I have one friend in particular who has he's one of the guys I mentioned who's made, like, a nine figure sum of money. And, he's in the chow his challenge is, like, what's next? My entire identity is my work. I'm no longer finding that as fulfilling as it used as I used to. Yeah. And it's a real problem. I'll tell you.

Speaker 0

Yeah.

Speaker 2

And so, I'm a huge believer in intentionally building a multidimensional life where your identity is sort of spread across multiple things.

Speaker 0

I love that. I had a we had a a guest on, Josh Calanowski just came to mind. He was a professional baseball player. He he got, actually, in Colorado. And, you know, got injured and he was a pitcher. He was doing really well. Got injured. Career ending injury, his entire world was was rocked. And and I I actually could relate to that on some level as well. I played lacrosse in college and was pretty good, you know, whatever, you know, this is the glory days we're we're talking about. Right? But at the end, your season's over, your career's over, Now what? You know, and and Yeah. I can definitely relate to that's an easy thing for me to to relate to sure.

Speaker 2

I'll tell you a a a real story related to what you just said. So one of my best friends is a former NFL player, had a wildly successful career. I mean, you know, was, you know, at the, you know, in his position, was one of the top guys made obscene amount of money. When he retired, He found himself to be profoundly bored, and it was a huge problem. And it sounds like, you know, to to someone who hasn't been in that position, it's like, Come on. Give me a break. You know, you're you're wealthy. You're retired at an early age. You have complete control of your time, and your biggest problem is your board. It actually is a real a real problem. Like, you know, I always say that, all of us, no matter how wealthy or poor we are, We have to fill sixteen hour sixteen waking hours a day with meaning. And if you don't, you're miserable no matter how much money you have. And so I think that's a profound insight because even if you don't have millions of dollars in the bank, you can fill those sixteen hours with a lot of meaning in some ways, just as much meaning as a billionaire can have.

Speaker 0

Yeah. That's really good. No. And I love the the back to the rock climbing thing just that the community aspect has been such a central theme on our show. You know, whether you're going through adversity or abundance, it's really it's all about people and relation you you said relationships and experiences. I found that to be a common theme with all of our guests who have overcome adversity or gotten to abundance now everyone's story is different, but in some way, they're always plugged into, you know, part of their success stories, the fact that they were plugged into a community were focused on others. They were serving others. It wasn't all about Kevin Dahlstrom. You know, it wasn't all about Jamie Babman. You know, because at the end of the day, that's just that's not fulfilling. I love the the community aspect as well.

Speaker 2

And it's I I love, you know, I remember when we did the first recording of your podcast. I was you know, what hooked me into doing it was really just the title of it, adversity to abundance. So I think that's that's a great subject matter to explore And what I've learned over the years, and this sounds really hokey to say, people will roll their eyes, but it really is true that it's actually just a choice. Like, we think of adversity to abundance as circumstances. Mhmm. It's actually just a choice that you make. And you either you either view your life as one of abundance or you view it as one of adversity and that will dictate your future.

Speaker 0

I love that. That's fantastic. So so it sounds like, so Swell was your most recent venture. And can you talk about how that went and how the exit went for you?

Speaker 2

Yeah. So we, Swell was a, a a fintech startup that we actually spun out of a larger company. We spun it out of a public bank. And the idea was to reinvent consumer banking. And It was a, you know, we were specifically starting with the credit card problem. Credit cards are arguably the consumer finance problem of our time, you know, We're we just we're right at a trillion dollars in credit card debt in the US. The average rate is nor APR is north of twenty percent. It's a huge financial burden for Americans, and we're not making progress on it. So we we went after that space. And you know, the the it was interesting because we started the company, officially in, around February of twenty twenty two. And, you know, fintech, our space was the hottest space in in venture capital. The market was still roaring. And, you know, everything was was roses. And then talk about adversity, Yeah. You know, later in twenty twenty two, we all know what happened. Right? In the market turn, in particular, venture capital shut down, essentially, still is essentially shut down. My space fintech went from being the darling of venture capital to a bad word. And then on top of it for us, We were a banking startup. You know, the banking crisis happened, and that directly affected us. So it really changed our trajectory, know, you talk about the role of luck and and, you know, right place at the right time. It felt like the world turned around on us. And the good news is we were able to find a off landing or a nice exit for swell. What certainly wasn't, you know, we set out to build a billion dollar company. It wasn't that, but it was a great outcome. All things considered And so, you know, I take a lot of pride in this one, actually, maybe more than my my bigger successes because, you know, like, when when everything's going great, anybody can can find a nice exit. But when things are tough, can you find an exit? And what you're seeing right now is most of my peers And and, you know, most startups, frankly, are dropping like flies. In fact, I I'm a I'm a I'm personally an investor in about fifty startups I've been an angel investor for a long time. I just got a letter yesterday from a CEO of one of the most promising companies I invested in. It was a robotic company for the home. Really cool products. Incredible to their team came from Apple and Tesla. They had raised a truckload of money, like everything going for it, they they were unable to raise another round, and they had to fold operations. Wow. And so, it's happening left and right. So Sure. The lesson for me from Swell was, like, around, you know, when things don't go well, how do you navigate that? And, you

Speaker 0

know, I

Speaker 2

always say, like, it's it's as a CEO, you know, like, it's it's, you know, especially if a venture backed start up, it's, like, reducing your burn rate it's, like, trying to position yourself and pivot a little bit so that you have, you know, so that your your aperture of opportunity doesn't completely close on you. And so that's actually a much harder thing to navigate than when you're having you're getting real, like, strong traction with customers.

Speaker 0

Yeah. No. That's there's a ton of truth there, and it you know, there's not gonna be the click bait for for for this story that we, you know, you want it or I want it, you know, whatever. But it but it's there's so much truth to what you just said. It could have been so much worse for sure. So Okay. Now I'm sure you're working on some things. What's the what's the, I've I've got some other questions here. Don't worry, but what's the future look like for for you right now?

Speaker 2

Yeah. You know, I was joking earlier that, you know, I guess, technically, I'm a fun employed, which is great. I mean, it's the first time in my life. You know, But but the irony is, like, the pace has not slowed down at all. Like, in the, you know, we we, the swell transaction closed at the end of May, And so I guess it's been, you know, it's what is it? July nineteenth today. So it's been nearly two months. And I haven't really been able to slow down and smell the roses yet. Some of that is just because that's how I roll. Like, I'm kinda wired that way. But even even, you know, for for a long time, I've had a lot of things going on outside of my day to day job. You know, I'm I'm I I mentioned I do a lot of real estate investing. I also do quite a bit of, you know, private equity, angel, and other types of private equity. Investing. And I do, like, I do a lot of, like, advisory work for some other companies. And, actually, as of as of yesterday, I just agreed I can't talk a lot about the details, but, talk about attaching yourself to a rocketship. I've, through mutual friends, met a founder, who's got a company, that in the past five years has gone from zero to they'll they'll do almost two hundred million in revenue this year. It's unbelievable. Just a rocketship And, and, they're having all the struggles that you expect to have when you go from nothing to becoming all of a sudden, like, a really successful company

Speaker 0

Sure.

Speaker 2

And so I'm gonna advise this company. It's gonna be a blast, actually. Just awesome. Incredible team. And and that's a great example of, like, you know, me, you know, in the wake of, you know, a startup, which, you know, swell, which is, you know, it's it's balls to the wall. Twenty four seven. Now to be able to be in word of an advisory role where someone else is really carrying the burden of day to day leadership being the CEO, but I can just help out and, you know, with with the things that I know and the things that I can do well, it's a great kind of, you know, recovery period or just a way to to kinda shift gears a bit for a while.

Speaker 0

Yeah. You can still make a big impact, but maybe not do all the the heavy lifting. And, you

Speaker 2

know, again, now back to this idea being asymmetric, you know, for me, it's a, it's an incredibly asymmetric, you know, I get paid to do this stuff, and there's a lot of upside in, you know, attach myself to a company that's having wild success like this.

Speaker 0

Yeah. But you you alluded to the fact that this company obviously still has challenges. And that's one of the things I think people on the outside of entrepreneurship, entrepreneur, entrepreneurism, like, don't understand is that It doesn't matter the size of the company. There's always a problem. Lots and lots of problems and challenges within any company. So Well,

Speaker 2

that's the thing people need to understand about being a CEO of a company of any size, because I've been in multi billion dollar companies, and I've been in ground floor startups. The CEO job, all it is is a never ending series of problems. Like, there is no glamour to being a CEO. Yeah. You get these occasional fleeting moments of success. But but ninety five percent of the day to day job of being a CEO is just, fighting fires. So so yeah.

Speaker 0

Yeah. That's that's really good. There was a I I don't have it in front of me, but there was a a quote from, Brent Bishore about the chaos within every every organization. It's a fantastic quote. Yeah. Alright. Are you ready for some rapid fire questions? Yeah.

Speaker 2

You bet, Brent.

Speaker 0

Alright. Let's, let's do it. What's one thing that people misunderstand about you, Kevin?

Speaker 2

Wow. Going deep right off the bat. I think, I would say that, I'm a I'm a very high energy guy, and, I believe in this this concept of strong opinions loosely held, And a lot of times people perceive the strong opinions as being sort of overly forceful or I'm not open to other ideas. But but the secret of people who are wired like I am, a lot of times, I'm an enneagram eight for people who know the enneagram system. We share this this trait which is we love to be challenged. You know, the the and often if in a business environment, when you see someone who has really strong opinions, the the the it's counterintuitive, but those are often the people who most enjoy being challenged because that's how we, people like that. That's how we shape our thinking.

Speaker 0

Yeah.

Speaker 2

So when I come in and I've got, like, I'm passionately laying out an idea, that doesn't mean I'm certain about the idea, even though it may seem that way, it means I'm trying I'm throwing it out there and I want you to help me shape it by poking holes in it, offering different points of view and so on.

Speaker 0

Absolutely. Love it. I actually just had Nick Huber on the show and he he has something on his mirror. He said that tells him I need to change my mind every day.

Speaker 2

He's a he's a he's actually an incredible example of that because he actually, purposely throws out things he doesn't even necessarily believe in. Now I don't take it to that extreme. Like, I generally do believe in what I'm saying, but it is an absolutely a way to and and next, a great example of someone who gets a lot of criticism for some of the stuff he posts, but he's one of the one of the people I know who is most open to new ideas and to change.

Speaker 0

Got it. That's awesome. If you could have coffee with with any historical figure, who would it be? Oh, doesn't have to be your favorite. It could be one of, you know, ten people who you would like to have coffee with.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Trying to think. These are these are deep questions Jamie. I want I I and by the way, whenever I do these, I like to give, like, the real answer. Like, so I often take a moment to think about it. You know, the the name that popped into my mind immediately isn't really a historical figure, but, like, I'm thinking of, like, today who would I have coffee with? It'd probably be Elon Musk. I mean, I'm an unabashed Elon fanboy. I think we need a thousand more Elons in this world who are just, like, thinking, like, I think one thing that's been lost over the past, like, let's call it fifty years is just like, it's like almost like our imagination has been lost. Like, A lot of the smartest minds these days aren't working on moonshot, things. Mhmm. And this world needs more moonshot ideas and across all industries. And Elon is, you know, arguably, like, one of three people in the world who, you know, is only interested in in moonshots. And so, yeah, that would probably be the person I would I would choose.

Speaker 0

Yeah. I and I agree. And it's so easy for people to criticize, you know, some of the shortcomings he's had, but it's, you know, but there's, you know, they're doing that from their their couch.

Speaker 2

Yes. Yeah. Again, I mean, you're criticizing arguably the the greatest entrepreneur of all time, certainly of our era, but maybe of all time.

Speaker 0

Sure. If you were given ten million dollars tomorrow, Kevin, I'm not saying you don't have ten million dollars, but if you were given a ten million dollars tomorrow, what would you do with it?

Speaker 2

Yeah. I have a funny story related to exactly this, and it's, you know, I have to caveat it all by saying, look, I've I've been at it for a long time. I've been fortunate to have a lot of financial success. And I don't take that for granted. Don't take it lightly. But but, you know, my marriage is a very traditional marriage where, I have certain duties. My wife has certain duties, and they're kind of the traditional you know, husband, wife, father, mother, roles. And, so my wife really doesn't, get very involved in my business stuff. Frank isn't even that interested, which I kinda I like that about her. Like, kinda last thing I wanna talk about at the end of the day is more business stuff sometimes. So anyway, we're sitting in bed one night. This was actually not that long ago, like, less than a year ago. And she said, She asked me that question. She said, man, what would you do if you had x million dollars? And she didn't know, but I was in my head. I think you have, like, a lot more than that. And, that's hilarious. And and the reality is, I wouldn't change a thing because I mentioned earlier, like, I'm already living exactly the life I want to live. Sure. And and and, I realized, and this is like the almost like the secret to life in some ways. It's like If you really are deliberate about thinking through, I call it your ideal in state life, like literally bullet out, like, what is that what does your day look like if you've got, you know, money wasn't a limitation or if you could have any things in you. What you realize when you really do that soul searching is, like, a lot of the things on your list don't take a lot of money. And I'll give you a a a great example for me, like, you know, it involves a lot of rock climbing, and which costs nothing, and spending time with family and friends. And you know, traveling a little bit, which doesn't have to be super expensive either. And then doing work that's challenging and fulfilling. I'm not trying to escape work I I wanna

Speaker 0

-- Right. -- I

Speaker 2

wanna do work that actually challenges where where there's struggle, there's uncertainty. And so, you know, the short answer, roundabout way of answering, like, I would live the life I have today.

Speaker 0

Yeah. And and that's because you've been intentional about doing that exercise of of do you want your life to look like?

Speaker 2

Right. And and but got a late start on that. I mean, I I did allow myself as I described earlier to be pulled down that path of, you know, the the standard path. And -- That's right.

Speaker 0

-- you

Speaker 2

know, I rebooted in my mid forties. And a part of the the mission of my Twitter account is to help people have this awakening earlier in life so they don't have to be forty five when they pull the plug on everything.

Speaker 0

Yeah. I love that. That's awesome. How about a book or two that you could recommend for my listener?

Speaker 2

Oh, man. I, one of my friends, Chris Powers, posted something on Twitter the other day. He said, I finish maybe one out of ten books that I start. And that's the same for me as I download a lot of books. I've actually been, reading I have to look look I'd have to look up the title of it because I can't remember, but I've been reading a lot latelage in in terms of genres or subjects just about, like, the role of man and woman, feminine and masculine because,

Speaker 0

you

Speaker 2

know, that's obviously a topical thing these days. Chance. Yeah. What is masculine energy? What is feminine energy? And I think some of the debate we're having and some of the, you know, I in my view some misguided notions out there, are huge are becoming huge societal problems that they

Speaker 0

I I couldn't agree more.

Speaker 2

As you know, I say, I often say, like, everything's connected. Like, you you can't separate, like, you know, even as an individual, like who you are in your personal life is the same as you are in your work life and your health is connected to that and your your political beliefs, everything's connected. And, and, you know, and and and not only is connected, but impacts everything else. So I think what we're seeing a lot of that in society, we're just like In some ways, society is becoming more and more sick because of just some some things that we are, you know, asked to believe that simply aren't true.

Speaker 0

Yeah. I completely agree. And I love the you just have a very, you know, kind of refreshing, I I guess, approach to the these types of topics because I think what a lot of people think is that people that may hold more traditional views are super judgmental, and they think they're better than everyone. And, you know, I don't I don't see it that way at all. I mean, what, you know, so I I I I you're actually being bold and even even stating that perspective on some level.

Speaker 2

So Well, and thank you thank you for the compliment, and I do like to think of myself as first and foremost, I'm a truth seeker. Like, I am back to the strong ideas loosely held. I may have strong opinions, but the moment I realize I'm wrong or outdated or whatever, I will change them.

Speaker 0

Sure.

Speaker 2

At the same time, like, you know, I've been at I've been around for a while. I'm not wrong all that often. And so, yeah, I mean, a lot of my approach to life is really just, like, intuition and common sense about what works and what doesn't. And, yeah, there's a lot of just absurdity in the world today. At on both ends of the by the way. I'm not pointing fingers at, like, the left or the right or whatever. Yeah. It's just like a lot of absurdity out there when and I I also have this fundamental belief that Most people are not at the extremes. Most people are good human beings who want to help their fellow man and wanna get along. And we've lost sight of that. Social media magnifies the extremes. And I think we need to we need a return to more moderate thinking.

Speaker 0

Yeah. I agree. Definitely. So speaking of Twitter, before we wrap up here, Kevin, what's a what are some of the more viral tweets that you've had or, you know, what are the topics that seem to really energize.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Well, first of all, we a lot of us who are on Twitter, we joke that, like, there's there'll be a tweet or a thread that you put hours of work into,

Speaker 0

you put

Speaker 2

it out into the world, and it gets no engagement. And then you're sitting on the toilet, and you have some brain fart. You put it out there to go super viral. A great example for me is, the other day I posted a picture. We bought this, like, pellet icemaker for our home because My kids have insisted they have to have pellet ice in their, in

Speaker 0

their I saw this. I commented on this one too. Yeah.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And and and that that's probably my most viral post ever. But but look, I the the truth is, my policy on Twitter, which is is definitely different than most people. I am not on Twitter to necessarily grow following all that. Certainly, I love it. It's very it's like an ego boost. But from day one, when I started writing on Twitter, I enjoy writing. I think it's the best way to sharpen thinking. And so it's almost like my personal journal. So I write first and foremost for myself. And if others like it, of course, I love that. But, but I've I've to that, even if I've grown my following, my only litmus test for what I post is am I proud of it? And if I'm proud of it, then I'm happy no matter how much engagement it gets. And it turns out that, you know, some of the things I've written have resonated with other people. So that's great.

Speaker 0

Definitely. That's awesome. Yeah. I'd I highly recommend people follow you on Twitter. It's it's really it's a gold mine for sure. So What else, Kevin? What have we not covered that you wanna touch on?

Speaker 2

Man, we covered a lot of ground. I know. Again, Jamie, I like the I like what you dig into in this podcast. I think it's, like, this idea of adversity to abundance is a universal problem. We all think about

Speaker 0

Yeah.

Speaker 2

And, I I guess I would leave your listeners with something just reiterating something I said earlier, which is the when you get to be old old like me, You've had successes, you've had failures, you've done a lot of things. You realize that, how, your choices and your beliefs are so self fulfilling. So, you know, abundance is absolutely a choice. It's a mindset. That becomes self fulfilling. It it can change your circumstances immediately, but it will also impact your circumstances in the future.

Speaker 0

That's so good. That's great. You on Twitter, you are at camp four. Yes. Is that where you direct everyone or is there any

Speaker 2

That's right. Yeah. So interestingly, you know, you back to kinda you ask, like, what's next for you? So So my my Twitter handle is at camp, the number four. Where that came from is that's the historic climbers Camp Brown at Yosemite National Park, which I think is the most place on earth. And and I'm I am actually, thinking about I've got a bunch of ideas in the hopper for sort of leveraging the the personal brand. If you hate that word, like, the personal brand that I've built was camp for, leveraging it into other things. I'm running a really cool experiment that I can't talk about yet, but we should regroup and

Speaker 0

--

Speaker 2

Okay.

Speaker 0

--

Speaker 2

the the the experiment is happening September sixth and seventh. So we should regroup after that. And I'll talk about it. It's a super cool thing I'm doing to kinda leverage the the following and the brand I've built on Twitter. And, that's one of about two or three things that I'm experimenting with that really is, like, just about, like, aligning my, my work with my personal mission.

Speaker 0

Well, I'm not I'm not surprised you got a few projects in the hopper. So

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 0

But, Kevin, this has been fan I I truly mean this has been fantastic. I mean yeah. I'm this is I don't listen to every episode of my own podcast. I'll be honest. You know, maybe with seven episodes, you might listen to everyone. I I I don't listen to everyone, but I'm definitely gonna listen to this one for sure.

Speaker 2

Awesome.

Speaker 0

Thanks a lot, Kevin. This has been fantastic. Really appreciate you. That's fine. The time. And to the listener out there, thank you for spending your most valuable resource, like, Kevin said, spending your time with us. We appreciate that. And make sure you check out our podcast website, which is adversity to the number two abundance dot com. Thanks, everyone. Take care.

Speaker 3

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Speaker 1

Thank you for spending your most valuable resource with us. Your time. If you like the show, please share it with your friends and fellow podcast listeners. One entrepreneur at a time, we can change the world. See you next