From Personal Pain to Paper Profits with Mortgage Note Investor Justin Bogard

Speaker 1

00:00

 Hey guys. In this episode I sat down with Justin Bogart and got a chance to talk with him. He's a mortgage note. Investor like I am he runs a note fund, and he focuses on seller financed notes. We talk a lot about relationship challenges and a some personal family challenges and divorce that he's been through. Which unfortunately is very relatable for a lot of people. And then we also talked about some Instances where he's lost a good bit of money in real estate transactions and the lessons. He's learned from that, we talked about how he the discipline and other principles. He's gathered from his background in athletics as well. And talk about, you know the importance of structure and communication. With that said we also discuss how he's never going back to what he refers to as W to jail. So I think, you know, Because he puts this discipline and structure in place, he's that enables him to have freedom and go play golf when he wants to and go to his daughters events when he wants to and that kind of thing. So it's a really relatable episode. We talk a lot about family and work life balance and things that I think, you know if you're on the edge about becoming an entrepreneur or becoming an investor specifically with regard to real estate and mortgage notes, this episode is one, you're not going to want to miss Investors. Have you ever felt frustrated by your loan?

Speaker 2

01:33

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Speaker 1

01:35

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01:40

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Speaker 1

01:56

 Started today. That's be--if ILS. S.com. Welcome to the form adversity to abundance podcast. Are you an.

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02:09

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02:10

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02:26

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02:28

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02:36

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02:39

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02:50

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Speaker 1

02:54

 Abundance. Welcome everybody to another episode of the form adversity, to abundance podcast. I am your host Jamie Bateman, and I am thrilled today to have with us. Justin Bogart. Justin, how are you.

Speaker 2

03:06

 Doing? I am doing awesome. Jamie, thanks for having me on your show.

Speaker 1

03:10

 Absolutely, Justin, you are one of the founders of American note buyers. Among other things. I know you and I have gotten to know each other a little bit better over the last couple years, and I am really excited to dive in here for the audience out there for the listener. Now, who are you? And why should we listen to you?

Speaker 2

03:30

 After I? So my name is Justin Bogart. As Jamie point out I am a real estate investor. I co-founded American note buyers with my business partner, Richard Thornton, and so I run the operations of the business, and we manage a real estate.

Speaker 1

03:47

 Fund. Awesome. That's cool. So now just obviously you and I are somewhat in the same space, but basically in the same professional space, we have a little bit of a different approach to our how we run our business businesses. But for the listener out there who's unfamiliar with, you know, mortgage notes are how that works. What is what do you, you know, what is it that your business actually does in a little bit more detail?

Speaker 2

04:14

 Yes. So we specialize in, what we call, Mom and Pop seller financed notes, we purchased them for the purpose of buying the Performing cash flow, and then we end up reselling, those notes in volume later after we hold them for a year or two. And that's the purpose for our fundraising.

Speaker 1

04:33

 Awesome. Perfect. I know we're going to come back to that in a little bit and dive into your business and you know the different types of people you work with. And who you serve and that kind of thing. Let us jump into your backstory. Justin, and I know you have been through some hard times. And obviously this show is called, from adversity to abundance and like we briefly mentioned, before we hit record. Everyone's story is different and everyone's version of adversity. Everyone's picture of abundance is different but that's what makes your story unique and that's why we want to hear about it. So where do you want to start?

Speaker 2

05:13

 Off? We can start wherever I like to When people work with me with investors, that want to invest in our van or clients that want to purchase notes from us and kind of continue a long-term relationship with them. They kind of want to know that the man that I am and the characters that I have, and I always root that back to my sports days growing up. So yeah, my dad is still is a big Sports fanatic, he loves sports, and He grew up with nine other brothers and sisters. So he's a family won. His mom was a family of 12. She's part of 12 siblings. So they come from a very big family. So this was he grew up in the 50s and 60s. So he had to share a bedroom with a brother, one of his one or two of his brothers, his whole life, till he moved on to college, and then he finally, you know, got to be on his own. So he was always playing sports, he was always doing things he's very active in. General and you know still today he can't sit still. So when I was growing up you know I am the only boy in the family, I have two older sisters, the oldest ones about eight years older than me. And, so I was always in sports, which I want to do because you know, I am a kid. I want baseball 12, soccer I want to swim football basketball, you know, all that stuff. So my dad would always push me to do that stuff and was always known. Practicing with me and stuff. So I that became a big part of my life. And so as I got better in certain Sports and certain Sports, I didn't excel in happened to be swimming was the best sport that I accelerant. So I end up doing that kind of year-round and as I got better, I had different coaches and was pushed different ways, and that kind of developed me into a very having structured environment. Then also not having time to do anything else, as, you know, Jamie you play at lacrosse and stuff. Yeah, absolutely. So I was always driven that way. I ended up being in the Indiana State finals, my senior year for swimming. And so, I had a medley relay team, and I was in an individual's event. 100-meter 100-yard brushstroke scuse me and so, that was kind of my biggest achievement. I end up going to college, because of it, getting a scholarship to go to college. And I swam in junior college, national championships for two years in a row. For the US Open and the 200-yard brushstroke 1999. Wow. It goes to the US Open by the qualify for it. I kind of reached the Pinnacle of where I could actually qualify by 1/100 of a second. It's just like, you know, that the length of a, the thickness of a hair. No. Yeah. Described is how I got that cut by sauce. I just with all the training, those of you that are athletes, you kind of understand what you have to go through with your body. Mentally, definitely, mentally the your He physically obviously have to go through. So that's kind of where my discipline. Nice. Try my determination. I never really quit attitude. Never give up attitude kind of derives from that know, I love it. And.

Speaker 1

08:19

 I mean, I come from a big family myself, and we were all athletes and you know, I can relate on many levels, you know, I think team sports and individual sports, obviously teach slightly different lessons but I think just there's so much you can draw from Sports in general and just so many life lessons. I think are you know very applicable. My daughter through her school is she has to pick it up after school activity and tends to be Sports and I you know she's not going to be a professional athlete most likely right? But that's okay. I think it's so much you can apply from Sports. I love it and like you alluded to that the discipline not just I mean, just the structure of, you know, I just think when you're not involved in a sport where you're working toward a goal and training and focused on accomplishing something, you just tend to people tend to drift and not do as well academically or whatever else. Of course, A lot of these lessons you can learn from other things outside of sports, but I think Sports naturally lend themselves to teach these activities lessons. So okay, so you did the Junior College swimming thing and, you know, in a very impressive way and then what happened.

Speaker 2

09:45

 So I end up doing another year. Junior college is only for two years for those of you that don't know that. And, so I did another year at our Indianapolis College IUPUI, studying for computer science and math and I ended up not graduating purpose. Actually quit, quit college and I ended up Working for a temp agency, that kind of put me in a job opportunity for working for a printing company of all places. So, I figured out how to use my computer skills to help that company out and end up managing doing their database manager, and it manager. And so, I just kind of went from there to another male company, / print company, and then went to another male / Point company and kind of built myself up in middle management. So I got a lot of training and skills on how to be a manager and Then also how to, you know, be heavily involved in the data, mining of those companies.

Speaker 1

10:41

 Now what you did you choose to, I mean, why did you choose computer science was it? You were good at it or you thought it would be a good if you could find a high-paying job or a combination.

Speaker 2

10:49

 Of all the above really at the time. See I graduated from high school in 1997. So I was in college from 98 to 2000 2001 and the time you know, the.com bubble was out there and so Having an online presence using computer skills getting certain programming. Languages was a big push because the whole world was starting to really understand that. You know, computer science is really the future of what we need for software and Hardware. So all that stuff. Interest me probably more Hardware than software. OK, actually ended up doing some electrical engineering classes as well. And so, all that stuff kind of interest me. I am a very Hands-On type of person. I don't like to read instructions. So, Cries and cries being a man, right? But I do like to reverse-engineer how things work and I do like to look at a problem and solve it on my own. I that challenge is very relaxing to me if you can say that, I like that. So like what my mom would buy things for, she had a small beauty salon. So she would buy like certain chairs or certain equipment, and she would ask me to put them together, like I would just like to put together. I learned how to work on cars like by myself, just reading, you know magazines and books and stuff and all those things just interest me being been mechanically minded like that. And so that was the computer science. Part was obviously a lot less physical work, so I was just, you know, using a keyboard and your mind. Yes. That's really what interest me or science.

Speaker 1

12:20

 Makes sense. All right so and then why did you quit college is that this is just not going well or was that it more of an intentional decision that you didn't want to go that route.

Speaker 2

12:30

 Both. So I didn't do well in school and in college, I didn't get very good grades. I was probably more or less a CB student in high school and in college I did put forth the best effort that I could with having a full swimming schedule as well and it was very difficult not asking for Anybody's pity for that. But it was difficult because, yeah, I been never pushed in school before. So I found out very quickly that I just wasn't built. Well to take tests and wasn't built well to be in a classroom environment like that per se. Sure as, so I need to learn things on my own and be a lot more visual. Yeah, so I decided that I wanted to get into the workforce and use what I know to start getting a job instead of going through school. Again it was just it was like how I described it Nails on the chalkboard for me to be in school. Why? I don't say that for anyone listening to not go to school, if anybody is listening on this podcast, I just say that because it just didn't work for me. It didn't fit me. Yeah, I am not going to push my kids to go to school if they don't want to as far.

Speaker 1

13:28

 As connects those my next question, actually, I know you have kids and you know what's your, what's your advice to your, your kids about.

Speaker 2

13:34

 College? I have talked my daughters are 9 and 11 rights now, and they, they are not sure if I told them. I didn't finish college or not. I think I might have told the oldest one, but I have already told them that they choose what they want to do, as far as what they want to be when they grow up. And it doesn't have to involve college and it can if you want. But it's not a big push for me, and they know that coming from me and from their mom to get.

Speaker 1

14:00

 It. I think you were just Cutting Edge. I mean now, it seems like college might be not as necessary, so, we will just say that you, you are a trendsetter, you.

Speaker 2

14:09

 Know, well, I will just say this, not to digress too much but specially seminars are really, like Master’s Degree in your craft. So what we do, Jamie, if we were to take certain mentorship programs, like out of high school, or after a few years of college, it would, it would have benefit us greatly to what we are today. We probably could have fast-tracked 10 8, to 10 years of our life, just by going through specially no training or real estate training right out of college right out of high school as opposed to going to college, just to get you know, a general education. In with a specific minor.

Speaker 1

14:48

 For sure know I talked before about how I had ended up working for a title company, I realized how little I knew about any of that's what's hot. What's the settlement statement? What is title insurance? And you know we're The Underdogs. Well, yeah, that's a good point. But, you know, it's pretty important to understand, at least how, you know, these transactions work but certainly not something I learned in school but so yeah, let us fast-forward a little bit. I mean obviously the We're going to hit on some of the adversity. I know you, I know you what you have talked about is already, you know, we have been through challenges up to, you know what we have talked about already, but let us kind of focus on some of the more serious adversity that you ended up facing.

Speaker 2

15:32

 So, what I have talked about so far is not real world problem stuff. It's not, it's not even a problem. In anyone else's eyes, I was pretty fortunate. I have a mom and dad, that worked one to two jobs, and they worked all the time, and they provided for us as we had a nice home. We had always clothes on our backs and his food in our bellies, so we're very grateful for that opportunity. It pushed Us in sports, they pushed Us in school and stuff. So you know that part of it, I definitely know. No adversity, they are just my own trying to get through life. That's her normal way. So I end up getting married, probably in my early 30s. I think to my first wife. And so then we had a kid shortly after that. So obviously, you know, my daughter's 11 so it was Twelve years ago, when I first got married. That's forward phone from today. And so that marriage didn't last very long. I think we were married for about 45 years and it was I thought I married my best friend and it didn't turn out to be that way. There was a lot of you know, problems with relationships is not success that I have had just as at this as an individual in relationship. So lo and behold, I find out that there's a lot of drinking It involves, she was drinking a lot, and she ended up cheating on me as well, a couple of times. So, it was pretty devastating to find that out because it's just like, you know, you got hit in the face, all of a sudden. You just like, where did this come from? Like, who is this person? I guess you weren't that person yesterday. Like, what? What's going on? So, you know, we did go through counseling and stuff to try to work through some of our stuff and that's kind of how all this bled out. So that was about a year and a half to two years worth of dealing with this. This person's know, The uncertainty of understanding like what's going on with you? Are you okay? You know, why are you doing this? And yeah, it was just things that I would. I just didn't notice when I was when we were together, and we got married and so that was kind of huge that's probably been the biggest adversity had to come over. My life was just understanding why that happened and.

Speaker 1

17:37

 Sure no I appreciate you sharing. It's not a it's not always you know, necessarily how you want to spend your days you know talk about your democracy. All this.

Speaker 2

17:47

 But I never openly talked about that over the are, like those of you that don't know me, I have my own podcast and I have my own month live monthly broadcast that I have done for yes, five or six years, and I don't openly talk about my problems or do anything on Facebook like that. But, yeah, it affected me in a way that I can't, I can't describe, unless you have gone through it because I just started a business. You had just started jobs. Yeah. About it was a.

Speaker 1

18:13

 Little bit, you know, we don't have to drill down on the stuff you have already mentioned but give us a little more context. As far as you had one child together at that point or.

Speaker 2

18:24

 We actually had both of our kids at that. Okay, so I got it like, they sent the girls were. Yeah, that makes sense. They were four years old, and two years.

Speaker 1

18:32

 Old. Okay. To two girls together. And then, and you just started a business. You said.

Speaker 2

18:40

 Yes, so sheet. She had gone out on her own first and decided to be. Kind of what I call Print broker. So she would work with different clients. That would need pretty material done. Like a large magazines and stuff like that. So we kind of helped her with that on the side. And so while she was building her business, I was still working a W-2 job. And then once she had enough money to support, you know, that part of the income, I just want to be in real estate. And, so I saw all these HGTV people at the time. That's why I am going. Property Brothers and fixing slipper were very hot. Very, very cute. Yeah. And so, I want to be just like them and I thought I could do it and lo and behold, there was a team that came into town that was promoting tarek and Christina, El Moussa at the time. Okay? And, so I went to that seminar and then I bought into another seminar that let me to another seminar and paid a bunch of money for that stuff. And then took just got my cut my teeth in real estate. I guess, from there. And then I figured out how to do it. I quit my job and just wanted to focus on that full time and then just kind of just my back was against the wall and I just had to figure it out. So I hadn't gotten divorced or had those issues with my wife just yet at that point. But that's kind of how I started in real.

Speaker 1

19:59

 Estate. Sure. So and was as far as your decision because our listener you know may have a W-2, may have a side hustle may be thinking about quitting or, you know, at that time was done you get your wife on board With you quitting your W-2. What was that transition like from w22 entrepreneur?

Speaker 2

20:21

 It was pretty easy transition. The company that I worked for was very understanding and very supportive for me to try to go out of my own. They knew I was very driven, I was good at what I do. I didn't leave them high and dry by any means I stayed on for a couple of months to kind of transition out. So I cut back my hours each month and each month I would add hours. My real estate business as I was learning and reading more and getting more training and spending more money and figuring this stuff out on my own. So that transition was kind of nice. Not saying it was easy. It was just nice because everybody understood from all facets from my wife to the company that I worked for. So that was a nice positive reinforcement there.

Speaker 1

21:04

 Got it. Yeah. Sounds a little bit like mine. I took my time and I went part-time or seven years and was building my real estate you know, business on the side and then eventually quit March of last year. But so okay. So then the divorce and you know I say this a lot on the show but it's a kind of the necessary evil. As far as the risk we run with the show or I run as far as just glossing over people's pain adversity and you know I know you mentioned that was a year and a half to two years of kind of dealing with that. And that's not none of that was easy and I know There's a lot that, you know, we're glossing over but talk to us about kind of from that I guess after that two-year, period was up. Or you know what happened? After the kind of that transition took.

Speaker 2

21:58

 Place, we will just everything kind of started falling apart. So I took on a lot of business partner, but kind of project construction manager partner if you will, an on Equity partner, okay. So I would Be the expert at financing and finding the deals and just underwriting the project in general with a direction of where we wanted to go with fix and flipping and wholesaling. Okay? And the construction manager was someone that I trusted in was my friend, and they were supposed to manage the project, get the people in and get the work done. So we work pretty well together for the most part, but they just didn't have the same drive and tenacity that, that I did. So there was a lot of things that were just going a little bit slower pace and a lot of you know, a few mistakes It's that were happening and it was just constantly like revolving door of contractors coming in and out as far as like they didn't do it, right? We have to redo their work and pay for more.

Speaker 1

22:54

 Stuff. So what year.

Speaker 2

22:55

 Was this? This was around 2015. 2016. Got it. Okay? So.

Speaker 1

23:02

 when you can still find deals.

Speaker 2

23:03

 Yeah, exactly. So, so we can find deals and start working on. So, I, you know, we do a couple projects at a time into many because it's, these were my first couple of deals and So that was like right when the bad stuff started happening with finding out about the adultery and the drinking I knew about for a year or two in that wasn't the worst part about it was the adultery.

Speaker 1

23:27

 Yeah, the workshop was, I can't imagine that man. It's just yeah, that would just.

Speaker 2

23:32

 Yeah, it's like someone else. Living a second life in right in front of you and you don't even know what's happening. It's just like I don't build at first. You don't believe it. You're just like how was that possible? Like I am around you all the time like how Physically, do you have time to do any of this stuff, you know. Sure.

Speaker 1

23:49

 And then just I imagine it just, yeah, rocks you to your core mean, it's just.

Speaker 2

23:54

 Yeah.

Speaker 1

23:55

 So what goes through your mind as far as, you know, you know what's going through your mind at that time, as you're progressing through that hard, couple of years, what's happening internally? And with your.

Speaker 2

24:08

 Mindset, And what's kind of like I would describe it as, you know, like the steps to alcoholism, like being an alcoholic and going through Alcoholics Anonymous, I would take it to that extent as far as like At first you're just unaware that this happening and then you finally have to come to realization that it happened and it's not anything to do about it but you need to accept it and then you need to start figuring out how to go forward. But the main thing I was concerned with was kids, I am very close to my kids. I care deeply. About my children and I want to be the best father that I can to them. And I am more concerned at this point. I am siloing my feelings and putting to the side which isn't a good thing. But I did that because I wanted my kids to be reassured that Daddy's. Okay. Mommy's, okay. It's just, we're going to be living, two different houses, you know, that they're very young. They didn't react in a negative way. They just looked at it as, oh, this is cool. I am getting two Christmases. Now, I am getting two birthdays now. They're like, oh yeah, they're spinning. The Fun out of it, you know, spinning it to the positive. Yeah, but so that was kind of my first priority is, how do I take care of them second priority? How do I make sure I get money coming in the door? Sure, my third priority is, how do I accept what happened? And, how do I move forward from this? And how do I learn from these challenges? So it was, it wasn't easy at all. You know, you have to go through counseling and figure out what to do. And then, you know, on top of that mistakes are happening with being a first-time entrepreneur, and try to figure out this real estate game. On how to do things, how to trust people, and how to vet deals and that people and just knowing, how to run a business, it was Jamie. I made all the mistakes in the world and I lost the crap. Ton of money to I lost 60,000 dollars on one flip.

Speaker 1

25:58

 Wow, that is a lot. I mean it's a lot when I mean anything for anyone. Right? But especially when you're going through a divorce and I mean.

Speaker 2

26:08

 My mind probably wasn't right at the time I thought I was sharp and I knew what I was doing, but before I knew it, people were making mistakes. We were to Market too early. I was, you know, I don't know what happened. I can look back now and point fingers, but at the end of the day, the person that is the problem is the person that's talking to microphone right now.

Speaker 1

26:26

 No, I appreciate you being vulnerable and honest and it's you know, it's that's what I am trying to get at with this show is its all it's easy to think that it's all rainbows and unicorns and Justin Bogaerts this entrepreneur who's just got it made and was Handed everything and it's not like that and I appreciate you sharing. But so what if looking back on and I know we haven't finished the rest of the story yet but just kind of up to them or Point. Yeah, there's more there's been up to that point with both the family hardships and the business and technically not partnership but business hardships or you know relationships there. What have you learned at this point you're looking back? What? Did you learn up at that until that point any lessons you could pull?

Speaker 2

27:13

 Out? Yeah, there's a lot of lessons, you know, at first as far as a relationship goes, I need to be more open with my feelings. I didn't need to wear my heart on my sleeve a little bit more. So at least the other person knows where I am at in a person knows my values and how I feel? And what I think, sure. And then also, I need to, I need to make sure They reciprocate that as well. And make sure the communication is a two-way street and not very closed off. And I think that was a big major problem with my first marriage. Was that the communication just wasn't open? It was always assumed that the other party was happy because I didn't know otherwise, but we didn't also talk about it either. So there's there isn't blame hundred percent blame on her side. You know, there's blame on my side as well. And so, that's what I learned from my first marriage, is the communication really is the, oh, Open door and, and like what you said, Jamie no matter what you see on, people's Facebook posts, all those happy, you know, rainbows and sunshine stuff, it isn't reality at all, right. It's a facade of what's really going on. Not saying every happy person on Facebook is actually depressed and sad and everything's horrible and their side, it's just great. It's, they're not showing you the full Gambit of the picture of the story, right there. You're just seeing the Highlight Reel.

Speaker 1

28:33

 Right? Yeah. And the truth is and I, you know, I have talked about this with my wife, it's like People only put their vacation pictures.

Speaker 2

28:42

 Yeah.

Speaker 1

28:44

 But I kind of like seeing her vacation pictures like I did that too. Yeah, you know, I yeah, exactly. I don't want to necessarily always dive into people's problems all day. I am going on social media to, you know, have a nice positive break. So, we're not saying it's necessarily a bad thing that people are doing that, but just understand that. That what they're posting is, it can get if you take that as 24/7, this is what their life is. Always like that's just not the truth. It's yeah.

Speaker 2

29:13

 Good. Everybody has their own struggles. Everybody has their own life problems and it all sucks, but there's also a positive. But there's also highs, and it's also lows, and we all go through it. And I expect that to happen in the future. Yeah, by all means, I feel like I have had, you know, in my experience and walking a mile in my shoes. I have had some hard times, but they're not probably anything like somebody else's hard times to wear. Maybe they have lost a loved one or something very traumatic has happened to them. I don't want to Pair myself to a situation like that but I have gone through hard times and I know that it's made me stronger and I had to learn from those hard times in order to get back you know to the positive direction. So.

Speaker 1

29:54

 yeah so and on the small business side of the real estate investing side. What was anything was communication? Also, the lesson there? What was the lesson you could take from, from?

Speaker 2

30:05

 That? It's really, it's the Estate knowing how to flip a house or knowing how to wholesale. It's not that complicated knowing how to buy a note invest in out. It's not that complicated. It isn't rocket science. Yeah. But that's one small part of it. So when you're on your own you either do this as a part-time thing or you do this as a full-time thing. I chose to do it as a full-time thing. I had only my own money to back me and I didn't ask for any help or any money from my family. And I don't know if I had given it to me, but I didn't ask for it because I didn't want that. That's not the type of person. I am, I don't want a handout, I want to learn the hard way because I am hard-headed exam one. So, I did that on my own. So when I lost all that money, I was — my, my worth was in the hundred thousand hours — hmm. Well, it was devastating.

Speaker 1

31:02

 So, and at the just to, with the family side of things, when you were 12, two hundred thousand dollars, — whatever it was, exactly. But when you were had no money, what was going on a way that as you're going through the divorce or what was the timing of everything? How did that line up with the family side of things?

Speaker 2

31:21

 Yeah. So when I found out about the adultery stuff, I knew their relationship was over and that at least that was a known fact. Going forward. That them just going through the divorce separating the assets and all that stuff was actually easy to do because there was no disagreement. Either side on stuff. We didn't make it. Well, I should say I didn't make it difficult for the other person for my next trick. I just said, what's the point? Yeah. What's the point? I could? I could just like them, I could say, I lo them, I can say, I hate them, I could try to spite them, I could try to put things back in their face and be passive aggressive, but at the end the day, who cares? Yeah. You know who really cares? What good is that going to do me? By being vindictive. And so that's just not the person that I am. So I just, I just move on. I just be the best co-parent that I can with them, you know. Sure to this day, we still communicate pretty well and there's now like friction or problem between us. We just, I just kind of said what I said, you know what? We were getting divorced and this is what it is. There's nothing I can do about the change the.

Speaker 1

32:30

 Past, so then the business hardships, how to timing-wise out of that coincide with.

Speaker 2

32:36

 That? It works. And it was The Perfect Storm, it all happened. At the same time and there's a saying that you hear, when it rains, it, pours and I relate to that. And a lot of times in my life, I know when something bad happens in a couple other things, bad happened. Like the rest of us going to come down. So just expect it to come down, but doesn't seem that bad try. What's gonna happen? If you know something rip off the Band-Aid at least you know and suppose being surprised about it. Yeah.

Speaker 1

33:01

 They can the don't know if you have had a chance to listen to our mutual friend, Chris 70s episode on my show. It was Episode 3. So we're going back about a year. But yeah, he went through. There was a two or three month period where it was a divorce and about 250 thousand dollars in debt, if I recall correctly. And then he also had a major health scare. And again, you get into this comparison game and that's not the point. Yeah, it's just in a lot of ways. You know, he went through a similar, similar type story. We're just like you said, when it rains it, pours, and He ended up moving geographically and kind of restarting. So, how did you, how did you refocus? How did you rebuild at that?

Speaker 2

33:48

 Point? What's kind of the same way you described Chris's story? I, that's, that's kind of how I think I just like a computer. I just want to reboot to push a button, just said, reset. Okay, wipe the memory clean? You don't nothing happened in the past. I am like a goldfish, right? Got 10 seconds Emery, Ted lasso, right? Right, and second mems, and just reset and move forward. Word. You can you need you can express your emotions and express your feelings as what I have learned and it's okay to do that. And you should do that with the same time, you just need to acknowledge your feelings and you need to move forward. And, so I lost a bunch of money, you know, whoop-dee-doo put for Justin, right? But how do you get it back? How do you move forward? How do you not make that mistake again? Are you gonna just give up because you lost a bunch of money? Has anyone else down that we have? Lots of people have lost money before, lots of people, sure made mistakes. I just I know that I don't want to go back to a W-2 job like this, consider that jail for me. I don't want to go to jail. Yeah, I don't want to do it. There's been many times and I have lost money again on deals. Not too far from the timeline where we're at right now, and we're lost it all again. All right, I get it back and I lost it all again. You just, I refuse to give up this life of being an entrepreneur, and being a business owner. And I won't back down. No matter how many times I get knocked down.

Speaker 1

35:14

 I love it. That's great. So, just looking back on the times, you have lost money, as in specific deals. And I think you would agree it's almost unavoidable if you do enough deals and you know, you can't, you can't approach business or investing with the form the standpoint of there's no risk or anything like that, there's always risked. But what would you do differently from maybe an individual deals? Standpoint or how have you adjusted your business model, you know, going forward to avoid a big loss like that?

Speaker 2

35:48

 Well, I feel really comfortable. Now, when I look at a deal and I underwrite it because I know the expenses in my head, now that I have experienced going through a deal forwards and backwards and doing it many times. So I understand what it costs to go into it. I understand what can go wrong and I know what's going to happen. I hate not knowing what you don't know. And so because now I know what's going to happen. Anything minor that pops up really isn't a big deal. Oh, I noticed on the major thing going forward. I definitely have a lot of experience and then I also have people that I can lean on very heavily. No, I have you. I am Chris, I have Richard, I have no my mentors. I got me into the business. Yeah, I have all those people I can lean on when I have those challenges. So I would and until this point I don't have to lean on people, too often anymore. Unless I come across a really unique situation that I just don't know, but I have that luxury today a passing on that knowledge now to the next And so that's I love it. A lot of what we do today is more not training per se but more just educational to say hey learn from our experiences and sure we can tell you when you're doing this type of deal, I know. I pretty much know what's going to happen with this deal. You know I can always with this borrowers thinking I know, I know they're lying. I know Craig I know what's going on. Yeah.

Speaker 1

37:10

 That's good. It's yeah. You sometimes get these because there are so many coaches and trainers out there now sometimes Those of us who do this in any capacity because I do mentorship, you know, on a one-on-one basis as well and it's some of us get a bad rap because, you know, these because there are some shady coaches absent, Bad actors out there, that's for sure, for sure. And, you know, people who just should not be advising others, for sure. But you reach a point where it's like, well, why would you not if you have all this experience? Why would you not give back by? And if there's value in that for other people, so, They should be paying you for that if that's you know that's a good thing. But question on the so you mentioned your business partner? Richard how did you get comfortable enough to partnering with Richard and what do you look for when you're working with people professionally at this point?

Speaker 2

38:06

 Yes. So again it's like losing money on a deal and then trying to pick up the pieces and move forward, it's the same thing with a business partner or someone that you want. To work with on, on a team, you're going to go through people. You're going to go through employees, it's just until you find the right assistant. You know, virtual assistant or helper, you're not going to find the right one and until you do. And so you make you may go through several in just like vendors. You're going to go through several vendors or contractors until you find the right one that works for you. So it's sniffing out what is it that I am looking for? And then how does that person replicate that or how do they complement what I do? Well, Sure. I know what I do. Well I know it. Richard Thornton does. Well. Yeah, and so together we have a business marriage, very well because there are things that he does that. I just don't want to do and I don't do well to begin with there're things that I do really well that he could just, you know, throws up his hands. Since I that's not me. I don't want to do it. Yeah it's not.

Speaker 1

39:11

 Like I said we have gotten to know you guys a little bit better and it seems like you worked very well together. So before I jumped. I do have some more rapid fire questions but before I get to those, what's talk about your business today? What does that look like you have a fund? What does that mean? What's your business? Look like today.

Speaker 2

39:32

 And so today we're doing the same thing that we're doing the past six or seven years which is just buying seller financed paper. We find the people that create seller financing or do owner financing on their properties. And we buy that paper from them. And so, with the fund, now, we have a bigger bank that we can work from instead of using our own Capital because rich, and I decided, hey, let us use our own money, and then we realize after, you know, 1014 deals, we don't have any more money. So yeah, we get warm either, but we should be doing a fun. We didn't know we were going to have this much opportunity to buy stuff. We didn't know we were going to do this. Well, this quickly. And so we just said, stop, we need a solution quickly, and we said, let us start a fund. So we said we're going to a 10 million dollar fund. We're going to family and friends fund. Yeah, they call it five or six be fully regulated and had an attorney draft. All the paperwork. Sure. So we have investors now that investing in our fund where it's going to be a 10-year fund, and we only have we planning on after the first couple of years, to do the next iteration of that fund to make it larger and more robust. So, that's kind of our game plan are stepping stone, is to get to three funds. And so, the first one is already in place in most In already active. And the second one about two years from now, we will probably introduce the second.

Speaker 1

40:52

 Nice. Well, I mean, a couple things I will add on one is you have the real estate background from, you know, fix and flipping and wholesaling and construction. And I mean that only helps when because we do see, you know, as you know people can you can be successful. As a note, investor coming from the engineering side of things are coming from a finance of the mortgage side of things or coming from the real. Estate real estate investing Niche. It's kind of there's not a one-size-fits-all avatar of who's going to be successful in as a mortgage note investor. But personally, I think if I had to give any, I mean, I think just having that real estate background is huge because what happens if your borrower goes non-performing, your note goes non-performing, they stopped paying well, You can evaluate that property what to do with it and you have that experience. So I think that only helps. Secondly, I think it just makes sense as far as the fund. I mean, this business comes down to three things, it's raising reason, it's finding deals, which it sounds like you. And Richard have a pretty good niche as far as finding access to two notes themselves, seller financed paper. And the other piece is managing those assets which I know you do a good job of because we use have used the same platform, and we have again I have talked about that and then thirdly like you said doesn't matter if you and Richard have 10 million dollars between the two of you're going to run out of your own Capital. If you're scaling, I mean you know it doesn't really matter. So you have got to find access to Capital so it sounds like you have found a way to solve all three of those problems. No, it's always a work in progress. I wouldn't say.

Speaker 2

42:38

 Solve the problem, but.

Speaker 1

42:39

 I suggest we and work.

Speaker 2

42:40

 On. We're definitely trending in the right direction that, you know, OPM. Other people's money is a can to anybody's real estate business.

Speaker 1

42:49

 Absolutely makes sense. So, and then you have an educational side and I know you have, we will talk a little bit about how people can reach out to you, but I have got a few rapid fire questions here for you. What's one thing? Thing that people misunderstand.

Speaker 2

43:06

 About you, Wow, that's a good one. I think it's my discipline in my tenacity. They don't, they don't, I think as part of it the other, the other thing, I think people and I don't know, this is just my assumption, just my view on how other people might view me or not, take advantage of what I know. And I have experienced is that I don't feel like a lot of people, listen to my advice, mmm. And I wish that they would, at least consider it. Or at least seriously think about the fact that I have been through that before, or I, I can sense what's going on with this. Or, you know, you should do things in this way and it kind of bothers me a little bit. But I am just, you know, I understand from their point of view, you know, who am I? They don't know me yet, right? I don't know my story, my background, maybe after this episode, they.

Speaker 1

44:01

 Were very. We're going to fix that problem right here, right now.

Speaker 2

44:06

 But I said, yeah, that's the biggest thing. I noticed that. I don't think people follow my advice very well. I feel like I give really good advice too. And I don't charge with you.

Speaker 1

44:15

 Maybe that's the problem, you're going to turn it over to Tom, that's good. I mean it's I can you know, I can relate on some level but you know a lot of times it's just timing and how the message is structured and that it's you know, you can't force it. What's one of your biggest you? No. Regrets are failures. That we haven't talked about anything that you can point to that. You like a do-over with?

Speaker 2

44:43

 And there's a lot of things I would like to do over with at the same time. We will talk about the other side of my mouth and say I wouldn't be here and know what I know today. If I didn't go through, what I went through, sure, going through the divorce, lose it losing a lot of money, not knowing if I am going to be able to afford to buy my kids food, it's just there were times in my life to where it's just like, oh my God. Like is it really this Bleak? And then I would read about, you know, other entrepreneurs and other CEOs, it's like they all go through it. They all. Lost my native. All gone through terrible stuff, very stressful things. Like if you can't stomach this stuff, don't be no drag over.

Speaker 1

45:21

 The absolutely.

Speaker 2

45:22

 I didn't know the stuff either II. Wish I would have had better mentorship or known who to trust early on. I think I would have had a lot less struggles. I still would have struggled. Don't get me wrong. That's what an event. There is no perfect row. There is no perfect way to hold somebody's hand. It's just, it's too difficult to teach being a business owner in a class. You just have To get your hands dirty and just absolute hope and pray.

Speaker 1

45:47

 Yeah, there're some principles, you can, you know, fall back on but your business looks different from my business. So we have different struggles and yeah, yeah. So speaking of that though, if you could go back and give your 18 year old self some advice, what would it be?

Speaker 2

46:03

 I would say, understand money. Understand financing very.

Speaker 1

46:08

 Quickly. Yeah, I love that. It's really good. Yeah, that's a tough one too. Because it's We say we should educate and I fully agree. Its critical right to educate. The younger generation on personal finance and investing getting their buy-in is the hard part sometimes. But I will just leave that there. If you could go back and have coffee or a drink, or spend have a conversation with any historical figure, who would you choose? Any historical figure. Oh my gosh, they could still be alive today. Just anybody you'd like to pick their brain for half an.

Speaker 2

46:45

 Hour and I mean nothing jumps out on paper. But I would, I would probably pick somebody that has just been through a just a lot of life challenges and just understand where their mind was, where they were going through how they move forward. I don't think, like I said, I can't picture who that would be up top of my head, but it would be someone and it may not Somebody famous mean, it just may be somebody close to me that I know that I would look up to and be like I want to be like that.

Speaker 1

47:14

 Person. Absolutely, if you were given 10 million dollars tomorrow, what would you do with?

Speaker 2

47:19

 It? Invest in a fund. I would definitely not spend it. I would probably pay off some debt that's been bothering me and then I would probably make sure that I set up very strong portfolio. That would just keep constant cash flow coming in nice and build off that. I always try to live beneath my means or just right at my means and not overspend. So I don't have fancy stuff. So I just want to set up for the future. I am used to not having a fancy thing, so I don't want to start having it and be spoiled.

Speaker 1

47:57

 Yeah. Absolutely. How about a book that you could recommend a book or two that's either and you know about life or entrepreneurship or investing any of those topics, anything come to?

Speaker 2

48:10

 Mind. Yeah, there's a few books that I have read the titles are escaping me, obviously Rich, Dad Poor Dad is probably the number one book that you just have to read. When you get into real estate, just it does a great job of setting the table of understanding why, why 9 out of 10 million years aren't real estate to understanding financials, understanding about hard assets and understanding leveraging, like, all those techniques are great precursor to what you can be, but I also read a lot of just Sometimes I read just odd books that have nothing to do with life, nothing to do with bettering yourself, as far as being a business person. So I sometimes I read some occult or esoteric type of books, just for, for the story of it or just understanding that this might have happened in our past and that kind of, I guess I will say excites, but I guess it. It, it answers a lot of questions for me about, you know, how did we get fast-forward to 2023 from, you know, No year 0, when Christ was born like, what how do we get to hear? You know, and how are things moving slower than all of a sudden there was an explosion of, you know, industrialism stuff. So it's just, that's the fascinates me just to understand. Yeah.

Speaker 1

49:26

 Well, yeah, it sounds like you have that analytical mind and you'd like to deconstruct things and just kind of, yeah, understand things from that standpoint. So, what's one thing in your business that you a problem that you're dealing with? Right now, on the business.

Speaker 2

49:41

 Side, The biggest problem that we have I think is very similar to any business today and that's knowing how to Market. So not knowing how to Market meaning we have to like you said, we have to raise Capital, so we're looking for individuals with private money. Number two, we have. We have to find inventory. So that's two of our legs. That are three leg stances here. Yeah. Yeah. And so marketing to those two different verticals is always a challenge because it's a never moving Target and it isn't the old ways before a lot of social media and Technology where you just send out mail or put things in the newspaper because everyone is reading those things. Well, now everyone's reading a multitude of different type of sources and it's, how do you spend your money and where you spend your money? So, it's very difficult to figure out, like, you said, the beginning, your avatar, who your customer is, or who your client is and understanding, you know, Understanding them, and how to reach them, in a way that makes sense that they are enticed, or at least, this is what they want to do. And I just happen to be in front of them when they want to get a decision. Sure. Now I can.

Speaker 1

50:53

 Totally understand. It's the passive investor is very different from the active node investor real estate investor and you know and how do you focus your marketing and Business Development efforts to kind of yeah provide the most value to the right? The person you're trying to reach.

Speaker 2

51:11

 There's sales there's marketing, and they're not the same thing. They're not the same thing.

Speaker 1

51:16

 Yeah, this is true. I have just started trying to implement some kpis. We just start this in my business, you know, because we do all this marketing and it's like what for posting on social media that's cool. Like, you know, it doesn't really mean anything unless it's really coming back to the business. But yeah, so What's one question that I haven't asked you that you wish I.

Speaker 2

51:44

 Had.

Speaker 1

51:48

 Anything you want to talk about that we haven't touched on talk about your podcast and you know where people can find you?

Speaker 2

51:55

 So we have a podcast called be the bank. We are on season five, and we're through a probably don't know, six or seven episodes already on season five. We release it every other Wednesday. So we do about 26 episodes a year. So every year is a season that's how Oh, I am keeping track. So it's easy to keep track of and doing this for five years. I started off with my good friend here locally in the Indianapolis area. Her name is Elizabeth May aura, or she likes to be called super eat. So we had the super E&J podcast and that was kind of pilot season the first season, and then we change the iteration to the to wealth shows. We're just talking about wealth and.

Speaker 1

52:32

 It was named. She's in the short-term rentals. Is that right?

Speaker 2

52:34

 She is she's our short-term rental expert in our region. Really know a lot of people that What? So, she kind of flourish pretty quickly, and she does when she's really smart really. Well, she worked in the car industry up in Michigan for a while in corporate. And so then she decided that she just really doesn't have a lot of time for it. Things are going well for her. She's running other businesses and buying other businesses, and so then I just took the lead and said, you know what, don't worry about it, I got this. And then we, I started the, the be, the bank podcast somehow we have done two seasons of this new iteration of are, and so we focus on just talking about it's almost like back to sports. Now ESPN analyst the next day talking about the game last night, you know it's just Richard you usually Richard II Army in a guest bringing up maybe a specific topic or just analyzing something and just having debate and discussion about it and being open-minded very quick, as 20 to 30 minutes, a car ride, that's what that podcast does. That's called be the bank you can subscribe to on any podcast directory, and then we do a live monthly The educational broadcast that we do on our YouTube channel and our Facebook page. And that's American buyers YouTube channel. And that is basically informational more visual just showing about me staffs going on in the industry will usually show a case study or give. An example of things that we have done. So it helps people kind of understand real estate, so they can choose to do it on their own. But most likely they end up being more passive in. What's invest in Lincoln funds?

Speaker 1

54:09

 Makes a lot of sense. Where do you see things going on? The seller financed. So I finance side of things.

Speaker 2

54:16

 It's been trending. So what let us start back to the crisis of 2009, the debacle The Real share baccala, call it the recession, when it whatever the Great Recession. I think is what they called it. They labeled it as the staff stood. So, mortgages immediately got underwater because prices of home values, just dipped very quickly and pretty much overnight. So Banks foreclosed like crazy in around 2012 2011 2013, there was just a Floodgate Of foreclosures coming through and you could have all the money in the world and spend as much as you can at the sheriff sale. And they're still been leftover inventory. It's just that much inventory. That came to fruition. So I love these hedge funds would gobble them up, they would buy them. They would resell them on seller financing and do nothing to them and borrowers will put down payments, and they would sell them on land contract or contract for needs are sometimes no mortgages. So that paper kind of baked 2014 2015, 2016, they started selling up that paper a little bit of time. So we had a lot of paper like that came through at that time real estate was just, you know, rising and appreciation around 2018 account of staled. Statement paid off. Sure. And then so, that's one kind of things got flat and it was harder to do, notice noticing starting to harder to flips and stuff until we got 2020. And then really, since the credit crunch was happening in nineteen, twenty-One. It's been harder for people to get Bank financing, so now sure. So our financing become strong appreciation, still rising, and still Rising crazy. So, seller financing is going to continue to get stronger for the next couple of years. So are we Don't know this already? Jamie it's about 30 to 35,000 seller. Finance transactions, get recorded every year. Hmm. Wow. Residential commercial land. All that stuff. Bulk of them come from Texas.

Speaker 1

56:19

 Okay, yeah, now I would, I would I agree that it's only going to continue to Trend in the upward direction as far as opportunity in the seller financed the seller financing space you know it's and of course we record this you know, today who knows? What's going on? It's going to be, like, in six months, right? We don't have a crystal ball, but the fact is, like you said, residential, real estate can, even though there are other offices, you know, commercial is different multifamily, might start to see some real. It's looking like we're seeing some cracks in that space. But when you're talking residential real estate in say 75 thousand two hundred, fifty thousand dollar range. It's only the prices are only continuing to climb and Because why would people transactions are down? But, but I am so that collateral value is, is only continuing to rise and like you said, and with the credit crunch underwriting standards have only gone up and up. So it's hard to get an Institutional. Look, it's hard to get a loan from A bank, right?

Speaker 2

57:25

 So why would they land on the property as 150,000? Unless it's just does them no good because it cost them the same to underwrite that as it does a million-dollar home. So why would they want It to it only benefits us as entrepreneurs and Real Estate Investors for several potential seller financing to help tell that market void right there as our friend Eddie would say.

Speaker 1

57:46

 Absolutely. So now that's great. It seems like you have got some strong opportunity there in the space that you find yourself in.

Speaker 2

57:53

 Ya residential is going to be good. I think 2024 in the spring is going to be a great year to start investing in Real Property again. I think you start to seeing more motivated sellers at that point. And, so I think they will be the inventory will start to balance. Out. Again I think commercial is going to be a great opportunity for not performing investors. It's only going to get more Bleak for the commercial Banks. Commercial lending right now because they're holding paper that's just losing its value every day and so you can prop you're probably gonna be able to pick up some pretty good deals. Pretty soon if you invest in commercial, it's a lot more Capital intensive but you can pick up some good deals which is great while we have the fund as well and you do too.

Speaker 1

58:35

 Lately. There's always, there's always opportunity behind every, every problem, right? Even though the headlines will scare you. That's, that's a, you know, that's the life of an entrepreneur and investors finding that opportunity and then adding value to those distressed assets and adding value to the investors and the people you work with. So what else you want to add Justin before we wrap up? Really, I appreciate being on this. The first time I shared a lot of those things on open air so hopefully my experiences will give somebody inspiration to say you know. There's somebody has gone through something. Like I said, some of my stuff is not traumatic or tragic by any means from somebody else's experiences or what they have gone through. But I think the moral of my story can relate to a lot of people is you know if you want to do this just commit to it.

Speaker 2

59:29

 Just like a marriage and just be in it for the long haul and it's going to be up. So it's going to be a lot of downs and all you have to do is learn from the downs and be prepared for when they happen. Yeah. I.

Speaker 1

59:39

 Mean, it's a very practical episode. Unfortunately, a lot of people can relate to relationship struggles and you know adultery and divorce and things like that, you know? And I just love the fact that you were vulnerable and that you recognize even though a lot of what you went through, you actually couldn't control, you're still not, you're still owning up to, you know, there are lessons there for what you could have done better as far as the communication, you talk about that. And so just for, I think, for the listener out there, understanding that life sucks sometimes and, and that's okay. And you can get through it, in better days are ahead and, you know, you just in use had struggles on the personal side of things as well as on. The you know, the business side of things but you're still here and your lessons from your sports and your swimming, your discipline and your tenacity that came out of that is only going to come back and reward you know Richard and the investors who work with you, so I do thank you for coming on and any last tidbit you want to share?

Speaker 2

01:00:54

 Yeah I would say as you were Regurgitating this, this episode here in spelling it out and fast. Since I was thinking, one of the best things that I learned from counseling is that when you get stuck on something or you just shake your head and you will understand why, you know, you write down on a piece of paper. What are the things I can control? Hmm and one of the things I can't control em. Hmm. And one of the things I can't control is, is somebody else, right? I can control my feelings. I can control. How I react to situations? Ation. But I can't control what somebody else. Does sure. So a lot of the things that I do in life, I just I sit back and I just understand like I if I am trying to get a certain reaction out of somebody or certain things that happen, I need to make sure that I am communicating to them how they want to be communicated. So one of my biggest pet peeves is people not reading.

Speaker 1

01:01:48

 Emails. So I understand when you.

Speaker 2

01:01:51

 Send a lengthy email, not everybody is going to read it in its entirety. So you have to make it very brief. Very quick and very easy to follow color-coordinated bullet point and just say I need these three questions answered and you know but it's a lot easier, so I can't control house if somebody reads my emails, right? But I can't control was just getting the point out quickly. Yeah. How you.

Speaker 1

01:02:13

 Present that email to them? You and I have a several of the same pet peeves. Yeah. Why won't this person? Listen to me? You know why won't they read my email?

Speaker 2

01:02:22

 And I told you to use the blue pin on the white paper or battle. How else does?

Speaker 1

01:02:30

 But that's good. Now it's very true though. In all seriousness, you can't control what other people, anything they do.

Speaker 2

01:02:36

 Really? So why get upset about it? Jamie, yeah. Why get upset about it?

Speaker 1

01:02:41

 Yeah, I love it. Well, Justin Bogart, this has been very good. I really appreciate your time. I think said you your said something about you're about to go swing, some golf clubs. Is.

Speaker 2

01:02:54

 That right? Yeah. It's a nice day. Today, I am going to hit the rain. Real quick. And then also, I the youngest daughter has a math Bowl contest at our local Middle School in a few hours. So that's love it. That's my plans today. And that's what I look forward to is just enjoy those things because I have those freedoms.

Speaker 1

01:03:11

 Now. Yeah, absolutely. Now you mentioned your podcast and your monthly webinar show. What is there anything else you want to put out there as far as how The Listener can get ahold of you.

Speaker 2

01:03:23

 Try? I appreciate that opportunity to plug in. So once again, we're With American note buyers, we have a website called an in be funds.com. We have a podcast that's called be the bank. Look, you can subscribe to any podcast directory. We have a YouTube channel for American note buyers, you can look us up and see tons of videos. And so those are the three things that we have our there. So if you want to communicate with us, go to our website and be funds.com, and we have a contest page, and you can just kind of look at some of our content there, but if you want to get some free stuff out of it, listen to our podcast. Download it. And then also watch some of our YouTube videos. We have a ton of content out there just like I am sure. Yeah, even Chris do as well.

Speaker 1

01:04:04

 Yeah, and I would like I said I have for The Listener out there. I have gotten to know Justin and Richard better over the last year or two and I highly recommend you check out their content. They do they know what they're doing. They put out a lot of good stuff. So, thanks again. Justin, and to The Listener. Thank you for spending your most valuable resource with us and that is your time. Thanks everyone. Take Care. Thank you. For spending your most valuable resource. With us your time. With us your time. If you like the show, please share it with your friends and fellow podcast listeners, one entrepreneur to time. If you like the show, please share it with your friends and fellow podcast.

Speaker 2

01:04:32

 Listeners, one entrepreneur to time.

Speaker 1

01:04:35

 We can change the world. We can change the world. See you next time. See you next time.