From Boarding School to Bold Moves: Michael Pouliot’s Story of Resilience and Real Estate Triumph

Speaker 0

Hey, everyone. This is Jamie Bateman. Real quickly, I wanted to share with you something, that's been pivotal in the growth and success of my businesses, and that is my partnership with Haven Financial Services. I've been working with Haven for over a year now. Christine Valdez was on episode seventy of this podcast. So go check that out if you wanna hear her story. It was a fantastic personal story for sure. But Haven has been awesome. They provide me with monthly reports that are super clear and discernible, and it that provides me with clarity and focus so that I can do what I do best, which is running my businesses, not preparing financial reports. Again, if you're in the market for a top notch financial service company, or if you just wanna check one out, go to w w w dot jamie bateman slash haven and check out Haven Financial Services. Again, that's jamie bateman slash haven. Can't recommend them enough. Christine and her team have been fantastic. So I definitely recommend you check out Haven Financial Services at w w w dot jamie bateman forward slash haven. Let's get back to the show. In today's episode, we get the chance to chat with Michael Pulio. Michael founded two different companies, EON and Carbon. Both are in the real estate space, and he has a vast amount of experience in both commercial and residential real estate as well as in finance on Wall Street and consulting, in the Wall Street world. Really, really a fascinating story. Michael left his w two and his consulting gig, but it was over time, over several years, where he transitioned into becoming a full time real estate operator. Not only that, he moved from, you know, the East Coast to Boulder, Colorado, which was a pretty bold move, pun intended. And we also chat a lot about, Michael's upbringing and the independence that he gathered because of the fact that he was his mother had epilepsy, and his parents got divorced, and he went to boarding school. So he really was forced at a young age to become very independent, and those skills that he gathered as a child and teenager really paid off, has have paid off since then and gave him the strength and and ability to become an entrepreneur over time. This one is very relatable, for anybody who is working a demanding job. Maybe you get paid well, but you're thinking about going into real estate either part time, full time, maybe passive, active. Michael has a ton of experience with regard to all these different asset classes and different approaches to making money in real estate. But we also talk about the ups and downs of being an entrepreneur and how it's not all smooth sailing and, you know, that no one ever has arrived and that things that the journey can affect family and, you know, it's not all rainbows and butterflies and unicorns. So I think you're gonna enjoy this one. Buckle up. 

Speaker 1

Welcome to From Adversity to Abundance, the go to podcast for real estate entrepreneurs seeking not just to thrive, but to conquer with resilience and mental sharpness. Each week, join us as we dive into the compelling world of real estate through the lens of mental fitness, where challenges transform into opportunities. Get ready to transform your mindset 

Speaker 2

and expand your understanding of what it takes to succeed 

Speaker 1

in real estate. Let's explore these stories of triumph and resilience, and 

Speaker 0

Welcome, everybody, to another episode of the From Adversity to Abundance podcast. I'm your host, Jamie Bateman. And today, we have with us Michael Pulio. Michael is the he's a real estate expert, and he's the founder and CEO of EON Capital Partners as well as the founder and CIO of Carbon, and we're gonna get into what those two, firms do. Michael, how are you doing today? 

Speaker 2

I'm great, Jamie. Thanks for having me. 

Speaker 0

Yeah. Thanks for joining us. Man, I feel like with your your background and your your story, we could probably have five or six episodes here. You've got a just a a pretty broad and diverse background, but but a lot of expertise as well in different areas. So this is gonna be this is gonna be exciting. For the listener who's unfamiliar with you, what are you up to today? Who are you? How do you define yourself today? And maybe what's some of the abundance that you're living in right now? 

Speaker 2

Sure. Yeah. So first and foremost, I'm a, husband, and, my wife and I have been married since for, oh, let's see, nearly ten years now. Met in college. We have three beautiful children, a one, a three, and eight year old. I live, in Boulder, Colorado, with my wife and three children. And, as you mentioned, I am the founder of, two, different real estate related companies. One, Carbon, which is a private equity company where we buy, primary large apartment complexes throughout the United States. And then EON, which is a single family, real estate services business and education platform where we really help individuals become investors for the first time or really grow and scale their business, to achieve the abundance and the the freedom that they're looking to achieve, through largely free resources. 

Speaker 0

Now this is great because one of the things I'm trying to do on my show here moving forward is really focus on helping the individual investor, real estate investor narrow down and decide which niche they wanna pursue, whether they they're an experienced investor or not. And, you know, there's so many different ways to attack the the real estate investing space and so many different ways to make money. There's not a one size fits all answer. And there's passive investing, active investing, residential, commercial, and all all of those have subcategories. And, you know, just I think this is you're gonna be the perfect guest for for this. Let's jump back, though. The our show is called from adversity to abundance. I know that, number one, you're not living in only abundance right now. You still have adversity day in and day out. But before we hit record, you and I were chatting a little bit about some of the adversity that you've unfortunately dealt with in your life and how that may have kinda helped you, build your businesses. Can you speak to specifically some of the adversity, that you've been through on a on the personal front? 

Speaker 2

Sure. Yeah. No. I I I will. So I think, you know, growing up, I I I grew up in New Jersey, with, you know, a well-to-do, you know, relatively well-to-do family. So we're always, had food and housing and everything. But, you know, my mother has, epilepsy. She relatively well, relatively uncontrolled at the time. And so that was really difficult, for myself. I have a sister who's seven years older than I as well as for my father. And so everyone kind of dealt with that in their own way, whether it be an avoidance strategy or, a lot of avoidance strategy. Maybe maybe it's like so I think, there was a lot of frustration, a lot of anger, and just a lot of, tense, living, like, for for many years. 

Speaker 0

Mhmm. 

Speaker 2

And I think that that that, one of the things that came out of that, and there are certainly a lot, and this is not a, this is meant I meant to be a therapy session, so I don't wanna, you know, bore you forever 

Speaker 0

on this. Some of these turn into almost a therapy session. Right. Yeah. 

Speaker 2

And, and and so I think some of the things, that I I think came out of that that have really helped me in my business, and my, you know, the abundant side of things, is really the grit and the independence of of needing to, at a very young age, do things on my own. Whether it's I needed to make my own dinner, and, you know, at a very young age, or I needed to figure out how to get from one place to another because my father was working and there was no one who could bring me anywhere because my mother couldn't drive. And so just being and and and nowadays, that might be crazy. The idea that as, you know, a six, seven, eight year old would go on a bike several miles away to somewhere to go do something. 

Speaker 0

Right. 

Speaker 2

But back back then, I wasn't 

Speaker 0

Why didn't you just use Uber Eats? 

Speaker 2

Right. Yeah. I wish I We had this service called Roadrunner, actually, but it was, like, in a a magazine that you would, you would order from with a phone, like, where you dial. Right. Anyway 

Speaker 0

A landline. 

Speaker 2

Yeah. With a landline. And so, and so there was a lot of independence at a very early age, from that, you know, that that adversity. And then when I was thirteen, my parents got divorced. My mother at that point had started to become healthier, more controlled in her, in her in epilepsy. Mhmm. And, which is great. And and she lives independently now in in New York, and that's fantastic for her. And, but then at that point when my parents got divorced, there was really nowhere to go. And then I went to boarding school at that point, a prep school. And so that just really further, enhance kind of the independence. Mhmm. My independent nature, and my ability to figure things out on my own and just be always thinking about how could I get this done, on my own back or with my own brain or my own resources, whatever those might be. So I think that, you know, definitely helped, you know, and I've carried that through into my business career and my life, through today Right. Across personal and business. 

Speaker 0

Love it. I mean, I don't love that you had to experience all that adversity, but, you know, in every way, it it might be easy for someone from the outside who doesn't know your story. You mentioned you you you guys had resources. Right? Sounds like you had you had some money compared to, other families. It might be easy for someone on the outside to say, well, they've got money, so they've got it made. So it's super easy, you know, easy living. But the fact is you didn't have, sounds like a super functional, you know, family or the most supportive environment, and that's not throwing any particular family member under the bus or anything. But you had to figure figure things out on your own. So 

Speaker 2

Yeah. We'll keep that for the family therapist. Yeah. Right. You on the bus part. 

Speaker 0

Right. Right. Exactly. But I mean, you know, so okay. So walk us through I guess, maybe we're gonna gloss over a good bit here, but from you said boarding school, what was the what was the rest of your schooling like, and and how did you kind of grow into becoming an adult? 

Speaker 2

Sure. Yeah. So I went to this school in Northern New Jersey called Blair Academy, which is a, you know, a good prep school. And I, my my my father recently sent me all of my transcripts and and, you know, this is, like, twenty years ago right now. And so now I'm I'm I'm reading over the break, over the Christmas holiday, this all these these letters from my counselors, and I was I I'm very shocked that I made it through there. 

Speaker 0

Oh, really? 

Speaker 2

You know, I was not an easy, student, to deal with. Anyway, you know, you lived on campus, so your teachers, you know, were bossy parent like figures. Right? And that's sort of the point. Uh-huh. People lived, you know, that a lot of the, parent the teachers lived in the dormitories, with the kids. Mhmm. And so, you know, I got up to a lot of, you know, a variety of different types of trouble. Mhmm. But I made it all the way through, and I realized somewhere early in my, kind of junior year that, hey. I gotta I gotta get it together or I'm just not going to go to where I wanna go next. Right? I wanna go to college. I wanna have a I wanted at that point, I knew, hey. I wanna go into either law or finance, and I wanna work on I wanted to do something that, you know, seemed commercially successful to Uh-huh. Junior and high school. And so, you know, because I had that desire, that goal, I was like, sorry. I gotta pick it up. 

Speaker 0

So where where do you think that and it's not a it's a very, you know, common thing that people wanna be successful. Not I'm not saying it's not. But where do you think that drive came from, and why did you really wanna be so successful? 

Speaker 2

Well, I think, you know, as it related to finance, it was I think it was relatively in vogue at that point. This was before, like, technology and becoming a software engineer was, like, the sexy thing to do. Mhmm. And going into finance was, like, the thing to do if you were gonna wanna become successful. So there was a lot of pop culture pressure around that. And then I think on the law side, I was always someone who people would say, oh, wow. You really are good at convincing people of doing things or, you know, like, oh, you really talk a lot. You should be a lawyer. You know, that sort of thing. And so I got a lot of that feedback Yeah. From, family, friends, etcetera, as a child. So it was one of those two things, 

Speaker 0

Mhmm. 

Speaker 2

And, that that I think kinda steered me. 

Speaker 0

And I think also the part of the country that you lived in, it Right. 

Speaker 2

Right. 

Speaker 0

Right. Right. Side 

Speaker 2

Yes. 

Speaker 0

Made a lot of sense. Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. So so talk about your your career on Wall Street. How did things progress, from that standpoint? 

Speaker 2

Yeah. So, I so I ended up, picking it up, in at the tail end of high school and and managed to limp into, getting accepted to Boston University, which was, good for, you know, how well I was doing in school. So I was happy about that. And, you know, moved I wanted to go to a big school. Boarding school was, you know, four hundred people total, so I wanted to 

Speaker 0

go to 

Speaker 2

a big school. So got away a little bit from the Tri State area with New Jersey where I grew up. Mhmm. Moved to Boston. And, you know, in my junior year of college, had a good time in college. Not really spending a lot of time thinking about what I was gonna do other than, like like, specifically. Like, I know I wanted to do finance, but I didn't really plan that much. You know? Got had a lot of fun those first few years. Then I said, hey. I gotta pick it up again. And, just sort of, like, just in time type of thing. And, I, got a internship. I I it was such that I was able to potentially graduate early, in college because I did start to, you know, in sophomore year really pick up my pace and my ability to do well in my classes and such. Yeah. 

Speaker 0

So I 

Speaker 2

had the ability to to graduate in three years instead of four, but I really didn't wanna leave, like, my cohort and everyone that I was with. So instead, I went part time junior and senior year 

Speaker 0

Okay. 

Speaker 2

Which was also a lot cheaper to go because I was paying by the credit versus by the year. Gotcha. So then I also picked up a job and worked at Merrill Lynch, for about twenty five hours a week, in my junior and senior year. So I picked up sort of like a co op almost that I created myself. Okay. And, that's kinda like got me into Wall Street and and Merrill Lynch in in Boston. And on the financial advisory sort of retail side and and worked for, a financial advisor doing, you know, cash flow analysis and, you know, needs analysis and budgeting and social security estimation for for clients as an intern. And so that was kinda my first, you know, wear suit, take the train, go to the office type of, you know, stuff. 

Speaker 0

Pretty different from the the college side. Right? 

Speaker 2

Yeah. Yeah. Definitely different than, you know, gym and, you know, go to the gym, go to a couple hours of classes, take a nap, go party. 

Speaker 0

Right. Exactly. Alright. So you graduate and then then what happens? 

Speaker 2

Yeah. So graduated, in eleven. There was not a job available in the office that I was working as a financial as a new financial adviser without a book of business. So and, you know, I know why now that made sense. But to me, I was like, we're working here for several years. Why is there no job here? So Right. I, I moved back, home, at that time and was able to get a temporary position, at JPMorgan. I I was doing a summer analyst position at a small, like kind of a small financial advisory shop in New York. So I was kind of in the game, there. And I got a call from a recruiter to do, a temp position, vendor management, effectively. Basically, the vendors that price, the mutual funds, for Okay. For for JP Morgan. And I was in that role for, about a year. And at that time, I was just networking around the bank trying to find out how I could get to the front office where the trading desk was, which is really where I wanted to be long term. 

Speaker 0

And because that's where you could make more money? Or what what what was the reason to go to the trading desk? 

Speaker 2

Yeah. So I think the, you know, the vendor management was like project management. It was, there was nothing 

Speaker 0

It's not super savvy. 

Speaker 2

Super yeah. It wasn't super interesting. There was definitely a ceiling on the on the income side. And and really my vision of being in the the financial services industry was all about being in the action, being on the trading floor, people yelling at each other, right, you know, in the in the, you know, the boiler room or whatever. So I, so I I networked kind of through coffees. It's sort of like half the half the, whole game there was just about having networking opportunities and Right. Having coffee with people. So, ultimately built some relationships with people in the bank and got myself onto the analyst, into the analyst program on an off cycle basis. So, got, you know, put into the two thousand eleven analyst program and, for the investment management part of the business. So started to work, on the fixed income trading desk at that time as an analyst doing all the analyst things that you imagine, you know, Excel work, PowerPoint presentations, working really late, coming in really early, all that sort of stuff. 

Speaker 0

Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. So talk about the grind. You you were starting to get to that. So, I mean and and I know we're we really wanna focus on the how you left Wall Street and that transition. 

Speaker 2

I'll I'll go through this one fast. So Yeah. I was I, I I I did that for a few years. I think what I realized at that point, it was a really tough, it was tough at, I'd I'd met my wife or at that point, girlfriend, fiance, depends on kinda where we were on time frame. When we were in Boston, she was at BU as well. And, I, once she finished her master's degree, she came back down to New Jersey, and I was commuting from Princeton. We were living together, and I was commuting from Princeton, which is was about a two hour commute each way. So between the two hour commute each way and the ten to twelve hours a day in the office, it was just really brutal. Yeah. And, just no time for anything else other than work. Right. So, then something had to change there. Either I had to move to the city, which wasn't at that point something we were willing to do, or I had to find something else. So, after I finished the analyst program, I then moved into consulting, for a smaller shop, in the middle of New Jersey. So I could be closer to where we were living, also closer to my wife's parents and, where we can really start a life together. And that, kinda took me out of the Wall Street frame, that kind of stress. Consulting wasn't as, much of a departure from that stress as I thought it was gonna be. Mhmm. Still relatively reasonably long hours, but not as big of a commute, twenty minutes each way by car. So Gotcha. That was a huge improvement. Right. And, that's around the time when I was in the consulting world. I had a little more breathing room where I started to realize, hey, this can't be this is this doesn't feel like success to me. 

Speaker 0

Mhmm. I'm 

Speaker 2

looking at my boss. I'm looking at the my boss's boss, and I don't love either of their lives. Yeah. 

Speaker 0

I don't like either of their lives. Right. Right. It's not that you don't love it. It's like you don't like it at all. And you're seeing how your life likely would play out. Right? Yeah. It's like Okay. So, how long did you do the consulting? 

Speaker 2

I was at that position for about four years, but that's where I started to, build a kind of a side gig in real estate. Yeah. Yeah. 

Speaker 0

Well, I think a couple things, there and and we have different stories, but I, also went you didn't go part time, but I went part time at my job, I don't know, twenty fifteen. Yeah. Twenty fifteen. And I really started to build my real estate investing on the side, and those were, you know, single family residential. We're using the BRRRR method to build out our rental portfolio. And but I think the other point I wanted to make sure I I drive home is that you you'd mentioned this, the headspace or that kind of bandwidth to think about a shift. Right? So not only were you seeing what you didn't want your life to in your career to progress toward, but you also now had a little bit more headspace and a little bit more time to process process those thoughts and be a little more intentional, it sounds like, about where you wanted to go. Whereas if you'd stayed in the grind with the commute, you probably would've just burnt out or I or just but you wouldn't have had that headspace to kind of, you know, be intentional about where where to go. So four years consulting, and then what happens? 

Speaker 2

Yeah. So during that time in two thousand sixteen, that's when I started buying just like what your story, it seems. Started buying single family distressed properties in Philadelphia using the BRRR method. You know, rates were low, leverage Yeah. Big credit was available. So I did, you know, in that, you know, I would bought, you know, every month I was doing another deal, you know, recycling capital. So did a, you know, about a deal a month, for those first, for that first year or two. 

Speaker 0

And you were holding those properties when you could? Or I 

Speaker 2

was I was holding those properties. Yes. Because I was mostly able to recycle capital out of those deals and cycle them every ninety days. Yeah. I had enough cash to to kinda do that. Now I 

Speaker 0

A little harder now in today's market. 

Speaker 2

A little bit harder now, you know, a little bit more money, and then the numbers don't work out just as Right. Just as well. And, but even so, I think what I realized after doing a lot of deals was, you know, that hundred dollars a door, you know, doesn't get you that far and you have to pay your bookkeeper and you gotta pay your project manager. And if you really have a biz if you have business expenses Right. You need to have a lot of houses to make Volume. Do that. 

Speaker 0

Or you 

Speaker 2

have to sell, houses as you go to generate liquidity. So I I, you know, after doing, you know, eighteen of these projects, I was like, 

Speaker 1

this is, you 

Speaker 2

know, fifteen hundred dollars a month is paying my bookkeeper. I'm a make me any money in cash flow. If the goal here is to get to freedom, you know, break away from the job, have enough money to to not, work the job, I'm never gonna get I'm gonna need, like, three hundred houses to get there. 

Speaker 0

Yeah. No. I think that's something that's really somewhat over stated in the real estate investing spaces. And I'm still in the residential space, and we're mostly focused on mortgage notes. But, really, the appreciation is you know? And and it's impossible to really time that, right, perfectly. But long term, real estate's very forgiving, and you can make money mostly via appreciation. We're talking I'm talking residential. 

Speaker 2

Mhmm. 

Speaker 0

Cash flow can help, you know, for sure, but it's not gonna change your world overnight if you have a handful of rental properties. In your case, you're saying, you know, eighteen or twenty, but even still, yeah, the expenses climb after that. So Yep. Okay. So now when did you actually stop doing the consulting then? 

Speaker 2

Yeah. So I I did wanna get I wanted to get to the point where I could, you know, hit my income from consulting Mhmm. Before I kinda take, you know, left that vine and and and and moved on to the next one. So I was able to do about that, you know, twenty units or so in the portfolio, continually recycling cash, and then using the cash I recycled to buy a thirty six unit, apartment complex with kind of, like, all the money I had left. Right? Like, again, with our money loan, in the south side of Chicago. So, like, totally different market. At this point, I had moved, to Boulder, Colorado. So, I realized that, hey. There's I I wanna go into real estate full time. Mhmm. I I there's no way I can do it while also working seventy hours in consulting. And, certainly, I can't pick up the phone until I have the conversations I need to have in the office. Mhmm. So I asked my boss, hey. I wanna work remote. And this was pre COVID. And, this is you know, they saw the kind of Wall Street mentality. So, like, no. You you you can't 

Speaker 0

you can't 

Speaker 2

work remotely even though I work completely independently on a computer, no reasoning to be in an office. So, at the end of, you know, two thousand I don't know if it was seventeen or eighteen. I'm I'm missing the year now. I, I was like, listen. I'm I'm moving to Colorado. So either I can work remotely there Mhmm. Or you can replace me. Gotcha. And it was such that, you know, I you know, consultants are billed out, like, you know, five times what I they pay. So it's, like, valuable for them to keep us. Mhmm. And so they said, hey. Yes. You can you can work remotely. You just didn't try hard enough last year. 

Speaker 0

Right. Right. Right. 

Speaker 2

So I you know, that's when my wife and I, moved out to Boulder, which is where we live now. 

Speaker 0

Yeah. 

Speaker 2

And I maintained for about another twelve months the job as a consultant until I could really get that income, really get that thirty six unit through the burr method. And then that did produce enough income that I was able to, make enough money to leave that job, and parlay it to more real estate. 

Speaker 0

Now two two quick questions. The I don't know if we covered this, but why real estate? You know, why'd you why'd you really wanna jump into real estate? 

Speaker 2

Yeah. So I I think, what I realized about there's two I think two things. One, you know, with a lot of other, like, professional services or high where you make a lot of money per hour, you do a lot of work and you maybe you make a lot of money, but then there's nothing there at the end. Mhmm. Right? You you don't have anything. Nothing pays you forever. Right? I like the idea of, hey. I'm gonna do a corpus of work. I'm gonna work for three months. I'm gonna put a lot of time and effort into this. Sure. And I'm gonna get paid forever after that. Maybe not as much as I would, from being a lawyer. Like, I was, like, even now when I look at this and I'm like, the lawyers making as much money on this deal as I'm making Yeah. 

Speaker 0

Right. 

Speaker 2

Upfront, but then I'm gonna make five times as much over time. And that was the really appeal of the delayed gratification of the long term benefits of real estate. So that was one. 

Speaker 0

But two Owning an asset. Right? I mean, that's really one of 

Speaker 2

the Owning an asset. Right. Yes. Mhmm. And two was that my, father my family has been in real estate in some capacity for a long time. So my father was a developer. He was buy building single family homes, and uh-oh. 

Speaker 0

Yeah. You froze there. 

Speaker 2

We Okay. There we go. We're back. So my father was in, real estate and was a developer, and did a lot of speculation, which is mostly which is one of the reasons I ended up going to rentals because I didn't really like that roller coaster ride. But so I I was around real estate since I could walk. So it was a very familiar asset. I spent a lot of summers digging holes and leveling ground and going to, you know, pick up toilets to bring to the job site. So I was familiar with the asset class. 

Speaker 0

Right. 

Speaker 2

And, and was comfortable with it in that sense. 

Speaker 0

And and, again, different variation. But when I kinda started saying, how do I would why do what what do I wanna do here? This this job isn't it. I started real thinking, like, who's in my who do I know? Who's in my network? What are my strengths? What what not not not focus so much on the obstacles, but my father was a a residential real estate agent for decades, still is. My brother was a loan officer, you know, and and I had worked at a title company and a mortgage broker for a little bit. So you just start to realize, yeah, same same reason. It's like, I'm comfortable with this this this thing. So I I get it and also wanting to own assets. So the second question was why why Boulder? 

Speaker 2

It's it it's not super scientific there. I guess two reasons. One would be Google the top ten places in the United States to live, and and Boulder was on there. And I cross referenced that with a place that didn't have an office for my employer because if there was an office, I would have had gone into the office, and I'd be back where I started. So, the first choice was San was San Diego, but they had an office there, so that was off the table. And so Boulder was number two. And, you know, the only difference, I guess, where the only big gaping difference from my perspective was that there's no ocean. So that's 

Speaker 0

the Gotcha. 

Speaker 2

The big killer. But yeah. 

Speaker 0

What you meant to say was your wife demanded you move there and you didn't have a choice. You know? No. I'm just No. 

Speaker 2

No. I'm joking. And it was the other way around, and, I pulled her to to Boulder. Yeah. 

Speaker 0

This is maybe what you told your employer. No. I'm I'm just joking with you. But Yeah. So and so it sounds like you did a little bit of a, you know, a little bit of a slow. You didn't just rip the Band Aid off immediately. It was over over years, really, of building out your real estate investing portfolio and and and that kind of thing. So then 

Speaker 2

Three three years, two three years of kind of, like, when I started to the point where I got to because I was also making good money. So I think if I had started earlier or I had less expenses, I had a, you know, one child at that point, you know. So I had a house, a mortgage, 

Speaker 0

Yeah. 

Speaker 2

Wife, child, making good money. And so, you know, it was, I I wanted to not replace my expenses, replace the income. So it was it was, it's a 

Speaker 0

little hard 

Speaker 2

to do that. 

Speaker 0

That's a that's a pretty high bar. I mean, just briefly, we've had Kevin Dahlstrom on the show twice, and he also uprooted his his family and moved to Boulder as well. And, you know, he was making really good money, at the time working a lot of hours as a CMO for, I think, mister Cooper, the CMO. But, you know, it's hard to turn to to just leave something where you're you're you next week, you're getting paid, I don't know, hundred grand or something or whatever, more you know? And and it's like, it's hard to just just stop that. So but sounds like you were able to build up to that income level or at least close to it with your was it just rentals you were doing on on that side? 

Speaker 2

It was rentals, for singles, then the multifamily. 

Speaker 0

Right. Right. Right. 

Speaker 2

Then I did do some, foreclosure flipping 

Speaker 0

Gotcha. 

Speaker 2

As well Okay. To generate some more cash. 

Speaker 0

Okay. And then I 

Speaker 2

and and I parlayed all of that into start doing some JV deals, started raising money from other people, kind of to be able to do bigger deals Yeah. 

Speaker 0

Yeah. Well, that's a key piece we, you know, we we talk about as well. It's like, no matter what niche of real estate investing you're in, eventually, you run out of your own capital, and or at least the capital that you have set aside to devote to this. Right? And so you've gotta be able to figure out how to access other people's capital and provide them some type of benefit return for the the use of their capital. We also glossed over the fact that you have your CFA and CAIA, which I know are both both kind of a big deal. And my my brother got the CFA, and that's no that's no joke. Yeah. When when did you get those? 

Speaker 2

The CFA, I did largely while, I did the first couple levels while I was working at JPMorgan. 

Speaker 0

Mhmm. 

Speaker 2

I think I wrapped that up at in consulting, and then I did the CAIA also when I was in consulting. 

Speaker 0

Gotcha. 

Speaker 2

Yeah. 

Speaker 0

Yeah. No. I just it's it's I mean and there'll there's so many different designations out there, and some people are not familiar with those particular ones. And those are those are not easy. So you have a lot of people in real estate who don't have the financial background that that you have. Mhmm. So I imagine that's been a big benefit for you and also your your networking skills that you mentioned earlier. And then the big thing was the independence that you that you talked about from, you know, from childhood that was kind of forced on you. It came out of the conditions that were forced on you. So talk about the transition, you know, leaving your your w two or if you're ten ninety nine, doesn't really matter, but, you know, really going all in a hundred percent on real estate. What was your mindset like at that time? 

Speaker 2

Yeah. Like, you know, as as I had said, you know, it was very much I was looking at, you know, the the ghost of Christmas future or whatever. Right? Like, what what that the my boss looked like. He was ten years older than me. He was making maybe twice as much money, but he was working longer hours, and than I was. And I it just didn't feel like that was gonna be the life that I wanted to live. 

Speaker 0

And 

Speaker 2

how I wanted to show up for my family and for my community. And so and I frankly, I thought I could make more money too actually going out on my own and having unlimited, income potential because consulting, at the end of the day is billed by the hour. And so there's only just so many hours you can bill, and there's just so high of a rate you can charge 

Speaker 0

Sure. 

Speaker 2

For the services that you're providing. So, ultimately, you know, decided that once that income was there and I could make that change that, hey, it's time to make the move. Mhmm. And and it wasn't all on me. You know, I I spent a lot of time, you know, listening to various, books on mindset Mhmm. You know, and joining, different groups. One for instance was Gobundance, which I Yeah. Definitely credit as, a group that of of folks that, helped Mhmm. Hold me accountable to what was possible and, you know, ultimately take the leap and know that, hey. I have the skills. I have the ability. I may not know exactly how I'm gonna get there, but, like, I know that wherever I am, I I will be able to get there because I have that, you know, inside of me. 

Speaker 0

Well, the truth is you could likely go back and get a consulting job at this point. Right? Right. Right. 

Speaker 2

Mhmm. So there's there's there's a two way door, I guess, is, like, what Jeff Bezos say. 

Speaker 0

Like, there's a two way door. And how how from a family perspective, was your wife supportive, or how did that those conversations go? 

Speaker 2

Yeah. So interestingly, a few a few, like, you know, the the real estate market's been a little bumpy these last, I don't know, 

Speaker 0

year or two. 

Speaker 2

Yeah. That pivot, and, you know, I don't think she really realized, the decision that was being made at the time necessarily. It's like, oh, okay. If we stay on this path and I we just moved to New York, and and I just walked to the office. You know, by this point, I'd be making, you know, multiple seven figures in the w two job working from seven to four on the training desk. Pretty good life Mhmm. From my perspective, and I think from hers as well. And it was like I wouldn't say it was guaranteed, but it was put the hours in. I was well liked. I I would've I was performing well. I would've gotten there in, you know, three to seven years from when I left. 

Speaker 0

Mhmm. 

Speaker 2

And and versus, you know, starting from scratch and then having to do it anyway in my own way. And ultimately, we got to a great spot, but if you looked at, like, the probability of those things, there probably would have been a higher probability safer to just stay where where where I was. Right. And I'm not encouraging people to do that. I think I'm I'm really happy with, obviously, what I've done, you know, the, you know, my my all my family, where I live, everything. I get to, I'm gonna go pick up my son at the end of the day, and, you know, from school hours mostly at this point. So, that's, you know, really I'm really grateful for all of that. But Sure. From my wife's perspective and your your question, you know, I think she's like, I guess I didn't really think about that at the time. And, but 

Speaker 0

she's always been really supportive. 

Speaker 2

Super supportive. 

Speaker 0

Yeah. It's, you know, entrepreneurship is tends to be more of a roller coaster, you know, from an income standpoint and hours work standpoint. It's it's not quite as, you know, as definable, if you will, and and predictable in that sense. So speak to the person who, you know, may want two different things. We'll start with with the first one, who may want to leave their w two. And every situation is different. We get that. But maybe a younger, you know, I don't know, someone who's thirty years old and, is considering they they they're pretty far along in their career established, but they hate the grind. They don't like the way their their boss looks as far as his his or her health or, you know, relationship with family members. And they're like, this real estate thing looks appealing. How do they decide, you know, whether they should leave their w two and and whether they should just do a side hustle or, you know, what factors should they consider? 

Speaker 2

Yeah. So I think it's always a great idea to test the waters and you have the ability to do that, in today's environment. There are so many tools out there that even when I started, weren't available to be able to do analysis from your desk, whether and and they're just so much more resources available for free to learn about it, to execute on transactions, in your local market across the country, whatever you wanna do and whatever strategy you end up picking. So I think it always makes sense to try something out because real estate, it's not some magical unicorn business. It's still a business. Mhmm. Just like if you were gonna go out and say, start a small business and I wanna, you know, I wanna have a a series of laundromats or I wanna have a, a a franchise of of this or that. Right? Like, it's still you're you're gonna be operating a business. There's gonna be work involved. There's sales, there's marketing, there's operations, there's finance, there's HR. It's all the same types of things in different formats. Yeah. And so you have to make sure that that's for you. And if that's for you, you get to test it out. That's great. And then and then from there, you can kind of go a little bit more in, go a little bit more in. And and from testing, you can figure out also what strategy is most, appealing to your personality. 

Speaker 0

Well, that was that was my second question. That really was kind of determining which niche or which strategy to to pursue in Mhmm. Real estate whether residential, commercial, passive, active. There's so many different niches, and, obviously, we're not here to cover every one of those in detail. Sure. But anything else to add as far as just determining which niche someone might pursue? 

Speaker 2

Yeah. So I, we don't in in the financial planning world, which is where kinda like I started my career, we have this thing called the IPS. I think it was now it's been so long. But Okay. Investment policy is a c statement. Right? Investment policy statement. And you would basically, like, determine your risk your your willingness to take risk and your ability to take risk. And that would sort of, like, frame out what things you can invest in. Right? If you were someone who had a really high, income and you had great savings rate and you were really young, you had a really high, ability to take risk. 

Speaker 0

Mhmm. 

Speaker 2

Right? But your personality type might be really conservative. Yeah. 

Speaker 0

So 

Speaker 2

your your willingness to take risk might be really low. And so your willingness will trump your ability because it's more about your mindset. 

Speaker 0

Yeah. 

Speaker 2

And so if your mindset was such that you're really conservative and and whatnot, then even if you're twenty five and you're really conservative, you know, and you have a lot of money, you're you're gonna benefit from taking a small amount of your available cash and doing something small. And so even if you make a lot of money and you've got hundreds of thousands of dollars in your four zero one k and you're like, I can just, you know, take, you know, that three or four hundred thousand dollars and do a million dollar deal because I can afford it. It's not about what you can afford necessarily. It's about what your mindset can afford and what you know. So I would recommend doing the smallest deal possible that you could muster because all of the deals are still based on a physical asset. So whether or not you're doing short term rentals or long term rentals or you're fixing and flipping or you're flipping a contract or you're doing some sort of creative strategies 

Speaker 0

or 

Speaker 2

you're doing, Airbnb arbitrage. Like, all of these different things still revolve around a physical asset, and there's some business that has to happen. And so and there's some project management. There's some, you know, tenant relations Yeah. And things like that. So just, try to minimize your financial risk. Do the smallest deal that you can possibly imagine. Mhmm. That might be, you know, ten to fifty thousand dollars in in cash. You may have some debt that's associated with that. And but Mhmm. It really is gonna depend on what market you're in and and whatnot. And if you're in California, you're probably not gonna get to find a deal that size. So maybe do a deal not in California Mhmm. And and be willing to do a remote deal. But stay small, and position sizing, I guess, is another way of thinking about that. Like, really think about your net worth and try not to risk more than, you know, three to ten percent of that net worth in your first transaction. Because that first deal is all about learning and and you're gonna, even if you lost all the money from that first deal, the lessons you'll learn is kind of like your education. Now we don't want you to lose all your money. 

Speaker 0

Right. 

Speaker 2

But if you are going to, better lose three to ten percent than Right. Fifty 

Speaker 0

to a hundred percent. No. That's really good. I've never had someone on the show talk about that that lesson, you know, that how to apply the what you did with the IPS from Wall Street to real estate real estate because it there are several factors, and one of which is your personality and your appetite for risk. Because let's face it, sleep is really important as well. Right? Sleep and relationships. So alright. We gotta pick up the pace here. I know you you're doing another show after this. We're gonna hop off in a little bit. I do have some rapid fire questions. But before I get to those, talk a little bit more about EON and Carbon and kind of what roles you play with those two companies. 

Speaker 2

Sure. So starting with Carbon, my partner, Cody and I, started that, in twenty twenty, time frame. And, really with the the expectation of of building a, multi generational, vehicle to acquire, real estate on behalf of ourselves as well as clients. So in that business, we, raise capital from, investors, from the, you know, individual accredited investor all the way up to institutions, and we typically buy deals between ten and fifty million dollars. Most of these deals are between a hundred and two hundred fifty units built in the seventies to the nineties, primarily in the smile states or the sunbelt states, basically, places with high population growth, good schools, low crime, places where families wanna live Mhmm. But workforce housing primarily. So Okay. They're mostly renters by necessity versus renters by choice. 

Speaker 0

And you're the CIO of that company? 

Speaker 2

Yes. And so, I mean, Cody and I make joint decisions, but I would definitely call him. He's more of the operator, and I'm more so on the deal side. I find the deals, get them under contract, get them closed, and then he's responsible for all the hard work actually, of actually getting those assets to perform in in alignment with what we thought we were gonna able to do. And he does a fantastic job, along with our entire we have a property management, company within that. So all of our assets are vertically integrated, and we have construction property management, and asset management inside of that. 

Speaker 0

So if you don't deliver on the pro form a, then it's Cody's fault. Got it. No. Just joking. Just joking. 

Speaker 2

Well, he sits on the investment committee. He has to sign off on all the deals. So he can't if he doesn't feel like he can perform, the deal doesn't get through committee. 

Speaker 0

Yeah. Got it. Yeah. Alright. And then EON, what does what's EON all about? 

Speaker 2

EON, is a more of a real estate services and education business. That's where we really help individuals who are just getting started, or looking to move from maybe single family to commercial, you know, get the the knowledge, the information, and the confidence to do, their first or their next deal. So Okay. If you're looking to make your first ten thousand dollars in real estate through flipping contracts or you're looking to move from fix and flip to your first commercial deal, we're basically here to provide you the support, through education or through services to do that. Okay. And and we do that nationwide, for, you know, clients, every Is 

Speaker 0

it a community? Is it coaching? Is it mentorship or all the above courses? 

Speaker 2

Yeah. So what we, what we found is that we've we've done a lot of deals. You know, my team and I, we've done over a billion dollars of transactions over the last decade or so. And so, you know, we find that the the two biggest things that hold people back is the mindset or just the overwhelm of information that you need to know maybe to get over that first hurdle of starting. And so, there's two things that we offer. One, if you just wanna get the information, we have a free school, group where people can go in there and get all the information. No gating of information there on how to get started, how to do wholesale transactions, fix and flip, rentals, even commercial deals. We provide that all in there as well as we have daily calls in there, mindset Mondays. We do, sales tactics. We do deal reviews. Anything you can imagine, we bring experts in to to execute on all of that as well as I am in there every single day, to help review deals. And we also have a deal desk where people can actually bring deals, submit them, get feedback, and then work with us, on a JV or some other capacity depending on what they're looking for. 

Speaker 0

Got it. Awesome. 

Speaker 2

So we do all of that. And then the second thing we do is instead of providing coaching 

Speaker 0

Mhmm. 

Speaker 2

Which is sort of like a middle ground, we just, for clients who don't wanna do it themselves, we'll just do it for you. Okay. 

Speaker 0

So you just for your model. 

Speaker 2

And we will just do it for you. You watch, meet with us every single week. We'll let you know what we did. We'll provide the reporting, the analytics, and basically make sure that you are set up for success over a twelve week period. So we essentially will guarantee that we'll get your first deal done in the first ninety days, or you don't pay. 

Speaker 0

Oh, nice. Awesome. Sounds like you're delivering a lot of value to a lot of different, avatars there, which is really cool. Almost out of time. Are you ready for some rapid fire questions? 

Speaker 2

Uh-oh. I don't I I didn't give me any of these in advance, so I feel I feel okay. Yes. I I guess so. I guess I'm ready. 

Speaker 0

What's one thing that people misunderstand about you, Michael? 

Speaker 2

Oh, gosh. It's a it's a long list. Okay. So, I think I could come off a little bit direct and abrasive sometimes when really I'm just trying to get to the truth faster. Yeah. So, I'm really I'm a truth seeker, and sometimes I could come off as abrasive or argumentative. And I think that's something 

Speaker 0

If what's one of your biggest failures, and what did you learn from that? 

Speaker 2

My biggest failures, and what did I learn from that? So you talked about the CFA. You know, I I ended up failing the level two exam the first time I took it. It is something that I probably studied for five hundred, seven hundred hours and, you know, put in every night for six months after a twelve hour day. And it was and, you know, time away from my, you know, fiance at the time, like, just, you know Yeah. It's a trade off. And, and so that was really, brutal. But, I, you know, picked myself back up and and and took the test again and and and passed it the same time. 

Speaker 0

Take it again in six months or something. Is that right? 

Speaker 2

It was a year I ended up having to wait. But, yes, we got I got it done. Okay. 

Speaker 0

If you could go back and give your eighteen year old self some advice, what would that be? 

Speaker 2

My eighteen year old self, a little bit of advice. I think it's it's hard to say because I really love how everything turned out. So I'd I don't you know, it's like the butterfly effect. You don't wanna change anything because it could change everything. But, if if, you know, just as a 

Speaker 0

Well, let's assume you wouldn't listen. You wouldn't listen to yourself. What would you try to 

Speaker 2

Oh, right. Yeah. So maybe yeah. I probably wouldn't have listened to myself, so that's probably, true. I I think, I I should I I should have, thought a little bit more and been a little more thoughtful about, yeah, what I was gonna do with my future and try not to think be a little I was a little bit shortsighted and and, like, just in time with a lot of things I was doing. Sure. And, again, everything worked out the way I Yeah. You know, ultimately. But 

Speaker 0

Again, eighteen. Who was that? 

Speaker 2

Eighteen, I think that's natural, but I I think more than most people Gotcha. I think 

Speaker 0

push the envelope on deadline 

Speaker 2

envelope on just in time delivery. Yeah. 

Speaker 0

Yeah. Got it. If you could go back I'm sorry. If you were given ten million dollars tomorrow, just somebody cut your check for ten million, what would you do with it? 

Speaker 2

I would, I would put it into the, you know, into SBX, and and I would take the dividends, and I would invest in real invest that into real estate or invest in 

Speaker 0

my businesses. Awesome. How about one book one or two books you could recommend for my listener? 

Speaker 2

So, one or two books. I think, a relatively newer one is the New World Order. I think that's a great one. And then that's really about market cycles and and marketing timing, things like that. And then I, for I really aim to podcasts, more than I not not read a lot of books, but certainly podcast. I really love founders. It's a podcast about founders, and 

Speaker 0

I 

Speaker 2

highly recommend people. And you can get, like, hundreds of book recommendations from listening to that podcast. 

Speaker 0

So I recommend that. He's really good. What's one question that, you wish I'd asked that I had that I have not asked you? 

Speaker 2

I don't know. I feel like you did a great job. 

Speaker 0

I don't 

Speaker 2

really have any Awesome. Questions. Yeah. 

Speaker 0

And speaking of podcasts, you do have your own podcast. What's that called? 

Speaker 2

It's called the the deal flow, or deal flow. And it's, yeah, it's a podcast focused on, chatting with institutional investors, capital allocators, and other folks in the middle market real estate space. And we just talk about deals. We talk about, you know, strategy, how people find deals, how they do the deals, how they raise the money. Just, all the inside conversations that maybe people don't get access to. Mhmm. We try to bring those out to, become more accessible for folks. 

Speaker 0

Fantastic. Well, Michael Pulio, where can our listeners find you online? 

Speaker 2

So you can go to michael pulio dot com, my website. On there, you can find, you know, that you can book calls there. You can also link from there to our school community, which is absolutely free. Or you can go directly to school, and, just search for the deal maker fast track, and that is the, community's name. So either way, there is a great place. I'm also on LinkedIn, I think. I mean, I am on these places. I don't check them as much. So the the first two is probably the best place. Although, Although I do have a bunch of social profiles that that people can check out as well. 

Speaker 0

Alright. One last thing before we hop off. What's the biggest psychological barrier you see newer investors facing today? 

Speaker 2

I think it's the belief that you need to have all the information before you make a first step. You're not gonna have all the information before you make the first step by design. It's sort of a circle. So you need to make steps forward in order to get more information. So it's kinda like a game of poker. You have to keep participating in the game to get more information. So just expect that you're gonna have to participate and throw a little bit more into the middle of the table chips wise, whether that's time or dollars or what have you. Just keep throwing the chips in and and you're gonna, you know, eventually win the jack. 

Speaker 0

That's awesome. That's that's really good. Awesome. Well, thanks a lot for your time, Michael. We appreciate it. 

Speaker 2

Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you, Jamie. I appreciate you guys having us on, and, enjoy, enjoy the rest of your day. 

Speaker 0

And, to the listener, thank you for spending your most valuable resource with us, and that is your time, specifically your time and attention together. So we thank you for that. Also, please share the episode with a friend who can benefit from this and check out our website, adversity to abundance dot com. That's the number two. Thanks, everyone. Take care. 

Speaker 1

Thank you for joining us on From Adversity to Abundance. We hope today's episode has equipped you with valuable insights and practical advice to elevate your real estate journey. For more inspiring stories and resources, visit us at w w w dot adversity to abundance dot com. If this episode has inspired you, please share it with a friend who could also benefit from our conversation. Together, let's turn adversity into abundance. Until next time, keep building your mental fitness and your real estate empire. 

Speaker 0

Hey there. It's Jamie Bateman. Ever felt boxed in by life's challenges? Dive into my new book, From Adversity to Abundance, inspiring stories of mental, physical, and financial transformation, available now on Amazon. From a former bank robber's redemption to a young entrepreneur's victory over hurdles, these stories are not just inspiration. They're the road maps to your transformation. Whether for you or as a powerful gift to friends and family, especially those who might not tune into podcasts, this book is a beacon to a life of abundance. Ignite that inner fire and set your course to the life you've imagined. Purchase yours today on Amazon and light the path for someone you love.