Escaping the 9-to-5 Grind: Lane Kawaoka on Leaving a W-2 & Climbing the Wealth Elevator

Speaker 0

You're gonna love this episode with Lane Kawaoka. Lane worked as an engineer for twelve years and then, got into real estate investing, got up to eleven rental properties, and then, made the transition from more of a passive investor into more of an active real estate investing role. And at this point, he owns or has invested in over two billion dollars worth of real estate, and, you know, that includes ten thousand rental units, just just massive success in the commercial real estate space. But what I love about this episode and our conversation is how Lane really keeps it real. He calls out, you know, I guess, the traditional system and how we're kind of brainwashed to believe that you need to study hard, go to college, get a good job, work fifty hours a week, putting money into your four zero one k, and then eventually retire happy. He really challenges a lot of the the typical thinking that we've all been raised to believe. The specific adversity that we talk about with Lane that he's overcome has to do with, you know, working that w two, working that nine to five, and kind of the grind and maybe becoming not the best employee and not really loving your job, and and kind of dealing with the the day to day, you know, that a lot of us can relate to and also some specific real estate deals that have gone south. So it's not this dramatic episode where he over overcame this incredible adversity. At least we don't talk about that. It's much more of a relatable and practical episode, yet very inspiring. And and like I said, he likes to keep it real. I just love how refreshing it is. He'll call out the gurus. He does not think you need to pay thirty thousand dollars to take some to join some gurus training or some community. But he adds a ton of value with his own podcast, his own community. He's an author, an accomplished real estate investor, and it it just there's such a refreshing take that he has that I think you're gonna love. Enjoy. 

Speaker 1

From adversity to abundance, hosted by entrepreneur and seasoned real estate investor, Jamie Bateman, is the ultimate guide for active and passive investors seeking clarity, mental fitness, and the confidence to make inspired decisions in the world of real estate. With a decade plus of investing experience across various niches and a background as a combat veteran, former army officer, and multimillion dollar mortgage note company owner, Jamie brings a wealth of knowledge and inspiring stories to each episode. Through weekly episodes featuring insightful interviews with industry leaders and solo explorations of mindset and strategy, listeners will uncover actionable advice and tips to overcome challenges and build lasting financial success. Whether you're a seasoned investor or just starting, from adversity to abundance is your road map to turning obstacles into opportunities and achieving financial freedom. 

Speaker 0

Welcome everybody to another episode of the from adversity to abundance podcast. I am your host, Jamie Bateman, and I'm pumped today to have with us Layne Kawaoka. Layne, how are you doing today? 

Speaker 2

Hey. Hello, everybody. Thanks for having me, Jamie. 

Speaker 0

Absolutely. Layne is the author of The Wealth Elevator and also is a very experienced real estate investor. Lane, I think you've invested in over two billion dollars in real estate. Is that right? 

Speaker 2

Yep. You you add it up. But, you know, I think today, we'll we'll kinda talk about, you know, the the starting phase. Right? That's the hardest part. You know, once you get past the billion, it's kinda easy after that. 

Speaker 0

Absolutely. So before we jump into your backstory like you alluded to, let's talk about, for the listener, some of the abundance that you're list you're you're living in, excuse me, you you just mentioned is kind of easy, in certain ways. So speak to the abundance. What has, you know, financial, what has wealth and and, you know, the the financial situation that you've been able to put yourself in, what has that done for you from a day to day standpoint? 

Speaker 2

Well, I mean, it's kinda put me in this echelon just like with many other business owners out there that, you know, make over a million plus in revenue. Right? I think there's a lot of people like that who have their organizations are, you know, a couple of, hierarchy floors, and just kinda living. I truly think that's the American dream, right, where you work for yourself and you have a team that you can lead and mentor. And you go out there and you kinda rinse, wash, repeat a business process that works, right, that, you know, makes money and provides value to customers, in this case, investors, and, you kinda just keep building on something that we have traction on. Right? That that's a keyword, traction. It's something that works. 

Speaker 0

Absolutely. So and we will jump back in just a second. So give us a little more context as far as maybe a day in your life or what a a week in your life looks like. 

Speaker 2

Yeah. I mean, I I've kind of found out that I need to kinda focus on what I do best, right, which is, you know, one of the thing many things that got me here was building connections with other partners, vetting deals, analysis, talking to investors. You know, I I focus on what I do well and what I like if things bring me pain and are kind of, annoyance Mhmm. Like some of the the, you know, putting p and l's into and rent rolls into spreadsheets. Mhmm. You know, we hire that out or, you know, take a lot of that. It's overseas. Right? Some of the more that tedious stuff. 

Speaker 0

Sure. 

Speaker 2

But, you know, I it kinda takes away a lot of the bug of, you know, doing in the beginning days, you had to do everything. I was all by myself. 

Speaker 0

Yeah. Absolutely. No. For you definitely don't always have that, the luxury in the beginning. You've gotta wear many, many hats for sure. And to your point of focus, I I I just had a an episode just came out on our show, with Ben Reinberg, and he's a he's, done quite a bit in in commercial real estate, specifically the the medical office space. And he said over and over on his episode that you get rewarded for focus. And, I think that rings true for for both the active and passive investor as well. But let's jump back into your backstory. I know you were an engineer, for many years and then made the transition into from from more of a passive real estate investor into active real estate investor. And I'm I'm I think you're both passive and active investor now. But what was the what was it, you know, what was the internal dialogue like, for yourself, and why did what led up to that that change for you? 

Speaker 2

Yeah. I mean, I I was caught on this linear path of just a regular guy. I had a three point five GPA in undergrad and became an engineer because that's what we're all brainwashed to do. Go to school, study hard, do the four zero one k thing, max that thing out. And then, you know, still on that that escalator of wealth, which isn't bad, right, which is better than most people Sure. You know, bought a house out of college to live in because that's where I'll talk to do. But then because I was traveling all over for work, you know, my construction projects, I was never home. Mhmm. I just started to rent it out, and I was like, woah. What is this cash flow thing? And this is back in two thousand nine, two thousand ten. Okay. Nice. Bought another couple units in Seattle, and then, you know, that was two thousand twelve. And then by two thousand fifteen, I had eleven rentals, and that was kind of that first stage. 

Speaker 0

Sure. That's awesome. And time time wise, we actually have somewhat of similar similar path. I got into real estate investing in end of two thousand nine, beginning of two thousand ten, and then didn't really ratchet it up until twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, with the single family rentals as well. But, yeah, it's interesting you say that about the four zero one k being essentially the only, you know, savings plan or investment plan, retirement plan that everyone thinks of for the most part. Right? And I've heard that the guy who helped draft the code, for the four zero one k on different podcasts, and he he's said that he never intended the four for the four zero one k to be the end all be all as far as retirement goes. So we just don't even we just all think that that's what it is, and that's that's that's how you it's really the only choice you have, but we obviously have a lot more control than than what we than what we're like you said, what we're brainwashed to believe. So okay. So you started to understand and see in your bank account, it sounds like the income that was coming in from renting out your first place and you started buying additional rentals, and then you said you got up to eleven. What was going on at that point mentally for you? 

Speaker 2

Yeah. I mean, I was you know, the first few were in Seattle, which is a more of a primary market where you don't really cash out in those primary markets. Sure. So I switched to buying in, you know, Birmingham, Atlanta, Indianapolis, more importantly, remotely. Right? I got over that that fear of wanting to feel it, touch it, be right next to the property. Right. 

Speaker 0

Right. 

Speaker 2

And I just started to realize, like, wow. I'll just, you know, just stack them on top of each other. Like, be I was starting to make more income than my boss's boss and, you know, those guys. And that was kinda where I mean, quite frankly, Jamie, I became a crappy employee. Right? Like Yeah. I can relate. Must have been around two thousand thirteen, two thousand fifteen where I was kinda like I mean, I I wasn't, like, the new guy anymore. Mhmm. If I was in the NBA, I'd be called a veteran at this point in my career. Still early stage, of course. Right? But Yeah. Yeah. I I was just like, man, this is, like, a lot of work, and I don't know if I wanna work another ten years to finally get promoted, you know, to over a hundred twenty, hundred fifty grand. 

Speaker 0

Mhmm. 

Speaker 2

Right. That was like, is it worth it? Right? And Yeah. Ultimately, the the line is, like, do I wanna get paid ten to twenty percent more for fifty to a hundred percent more BS and managing people too? And that's Right. I don't know, man. That doesn't sound like a good deal to me. Yeah. So I was just like like water flowing down a mountain. This buy more rental property just seems the better way to go. Mhmm. But as you alluded to, you know, eleven rental properties is is somewhat easy, especially I mean, I had property management, right, to do the dirty work. 

Speaker 0

Yeah. 

Speaker 2

But it was it was very difficult when you get past that stage because with eleven rentals, just to give a sense of how that's like, maybe that's a few thousand dollars of passive cash flow a month. Not bad. Right? Not gonna complain. 

Speaker 0

Right. 

Speaker 2

But with eleven rentals, I had maybe an eviction or two every year, some kind of big catastrophe that happened every quarter that resulted in a a semi bigger repair bill. And, you know, I had to stay on top of the property manager to kind of get it done. And 

Speaker 0

it just 

Speaker 2

be was like, well, most of my clients, they aspire for five figures of passive cash flow. So if you do the math, I'm a need thirty four of these properties. Right. And it's just the exception rate's gonna triple, quadruple too. So now an eviction or eviction every month. Some kind of big issue happening every freaking couple weeks. 

Speaker 0

Right. 

Speaker 2

Right. Just not scalable. 

Speaker 0

Sure. Understood. Okay. So, you know, twenty thirteen to twenty fifteen, you you you aren't the best employee, and then how does that transition actually come to fruition as far as leaving your w 

Speaker 2

two? Well, I mean, I know we're we're talking earlier kind of the the people listening out there kind of maybe at this stage. Yeah. What I also started to do is I started to pick easier jobs. So started to work you know, my first job was pretty hardcore private company. Mhmm. I wanted to get paid more. And that was important at the time. Right? Mhmm. Getting the most pay. And, plus, I didn't have a family, so screw it. You know? Sure. Whatever. Work all day. 

Speaker 0

You have energy, time. You need income. Grind it out. Right? Work hard. Right. 

Speaker 2

Yeah. Right. Makes sense. So then I switched to more easier jobs working for the government. Luckily, Elon wasn't doing the Doge thing back there. That's fine. But but then that that started to just start finding easier and easier jobs. Yeah. One funny thing happened was I actually enjoyed working for the the peers and the people I started working for. Yeah. So that was cool. 

Speaker 0

Alright. Sure. You right. You were maybe didn't have as much pressure on yourself, from a professional standpoint, so you could kind of enjoy the day to day and the the moment by moment. Right? 

Speaker 2

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the the first company was very competitive, right, with your peers. But, you know, I call this the the triangle, in your career where you like what you do, you like what who you work for, work with with your peers. Usually, you can survive pretty well with two of those three in place. 

Speaker 0

Mhmm. Sure. 

Speaker 2

If you you got all three, well, screw you. Right? You're happy. Right? 

Speaker 0

Right. 

Speaker 2

But I didn't really like what I did. I, you know, didn't really care peep for people who I worked for initially and work with. So I was kinda that pain created that inspiration to learn about real estate, to devour these podcasts, to Right. Right. To save money. Right. I was saving, like, fifty, a hundred grand per year to plow into rental properties at That's awesome. In those earlier years. 

Speaker 0

Yes. I can I can really relate to a lot, and I don't wanna I don't wanna take over the episode, but it's I I worked for the government for a while as well and just it was kind of groundhog day? And I did I did like the people I worked with and worked for, but it was just never ending, and I wasn't gonna really reach that level I wanted to without taking ownership. So I would use my commute time to listen to podcasts and, you know, and then I started to just make a mental shift in twenty fifteen for me. Just, you know, what's how do I take ownership of this? How there's gotta be something more than this. It wasn't that I had this extreme pain, and I couldn't get up and go to work every day. It's just there was no end in sight, and it just was, you know, it was okay. But I was I was becoming worse and worse as far as an employee goes. And, eventually, I did a slow transition over seven years, actually, but, seven years working part time. But, okay. So what year did you actually quit or walk away from the engineering world? 

Speaker 2

Well, I mean, that was probably two thousand eighteen. Okay. But I probably would've I mean, this is, I think, the important point. I probably would've been still at that day job if it weren't for, I had started the podcast back in two thousand sixteen being one of the more OGs of the podcasting scene. And, you know, just a lot of it is luck. Right? Right timing. Timing. There wasn't very many podcasts back then, but I was able to build up a community of other passive investors Mhmm. So but I I looking back, I probably would have been content just staying where I was at. And just at that point, I was getting a a kinda like a third paycheck every single month. So that was probably more than enough to buy, you know, forty, fifty grand down payment on a rental property every single year. So and then, of course, that that that that's already hitting the hockey stick 

Speaker 0

Mhmm. 

Speaker 2

On the graph already. Sure. So I probably would have been, you know, fine just hiding out at work. I mean, at that time, you know, I I had, like, a Mercedes, the government worker driving to work, taking calls on the side here and there. Mhmm. It was kind of a chill chill time in life. I kinda look back at that time, and it's like, before jumping into entrepreneurship, sometimes I I wonder, you know, should I really have done that. Right? 

Speaker 0

Right. Entrepreneurship is is has a lot of ups and downs and a lot of challenges. 

Speaker 2

The new rat race is what it's called. Right? Like, yeah, you aspire to this world that you control, but Mhmm. It it's just now the stakes are a lot higher and Yeah. You know, again, question, like, it depends on what you want. Don't just chase ego on being the business owner because it's not all cracked up to be. Mhmm. Nothing's better than having a nice w two salary where your expectations are low, where you can make a little passive income on the side in your own side gig. 

Speaker 0

Sure. Yeah. No. I love that. And I I love the the approach you're taking because I I agree that it's not a one size fits all. And right now, in today's world and on podcast and things, the word entrepreneur is such a sexy buzzword, and it's cool to to say I'm an entrepreneur. But you're right. It comes with a ton of challenges and a ton of pressure, and then it's all on you managing people and, you know, there there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a w two and then potentially investing in real estate on the side. And then I think that gets to focus. If you're really good at your w two, maybe you focus on that and produce a higher income, than you would otherwise potentially. So I I I think it's it's not a one size fits all answer, but how would you address that person who is kind of on the fence? They have a w two right now. Maybe they're interested in real estate. Any words of wisdom for what they should consider as far as whether to make that leap, and if so, when to make that leap? 

Speaker 2

What it I mean, it depends on what they bring to the table. Right? If they can raise millions of dollars and, you know, make add value to projects in that way, then, yeah, do it. Or if you are an operator, right, like and you've you've operated fifty, a hundred unit properties in the past, then great. But, I mean, this is now you get into the world of all these, like, guru groups and, you know, which I joined a handful of them back then. Mhmm. Now these are the silly groups that you pay thirty grand, fifty grand to join. They teach you how to do it all. But in reality, only, like, one percent of the students are successful 

Speaker 0

Mhmm. 

Speaker 2

In those things. The only thing I learned was to underwrite deals, which you could probably have Chad CPT teach you that these days. Right. And then go kiss the butt of brokers, but that doesn't really work. I mean, it just works through attrition, like I said. 

Speaker 0

Mhmm. 

Speaker 2

Only the stupid people are still around still kissing butt to brokers after a couple years. I did a podcast on this a while back ago. I mean, it's it's just a lot of people spend money on these silly programs Yeah. That aren't really, you know, like, the success rate is one percent. It's silly. 

Speaker 0

Right. 

Speaker 2

It's like if you went to college and they told you one percent, you go get a good job. That's that nobody would do it, but everybody does it for here. And I think that you know, to answer your question in a in a more drawn out way, it depends on who you are. What's your pedigree? Which what's your cattle grade out there? Right? Like, everybody's different, and that's in my wealth elevator book, it's more for passive investors, but it's it's like where you are in terms of your net worth and your income. If you're a guy who makes fifty thousand dollars or less or sixty thousand dollars or less Mhmm. I'm sorry. Don't follow me. Don't read my book. Right? The same thing. Like, if you're an entrepreneur type well, let me get one thing straight. You're not an entrepreneur until you've had an exit or sold off your hundred, unit building. If not, you're just a you're entrepreneur at that point, and there's a lot of them out there. Mhmm. You can find them on LinkedIn entrepreneur. So it the success rate is very, very small 

Speaker 0

for 

Speaker 2

people to go off on entrepreneurship hundred thousand dollars a year doing that, which in that case, you better off better off being at your own day job. 

Speaker 0

Right. Right. Sure. So looking back at your your story, and we're we'll we'll, connect some more of the dots as well. But what would you say is kind of the biggest if you had to say the the type of adversity or the specific time frame in your story for you personally, what was that adversity exactly, and and how did you overcome that? 

Speaker 2

Yeah. I mean, I would say, like, you know, when I got some traction and and getting back to that word again, traction means that you have some type of wheel or business thing that you do that creates value 

Speaker 0

Mhmm. 

Speaker 2

That you can you've start to realize you can rinse, wash, repeat. Mhmm. You know, like and not just talking about, like, oh, buy a rental property. Yeah. That's the oldest trick in the book Mhmm. You know, to do. Yeah. But my business was, you know, syndicating apartment buildings back in two thousand and sixteen. Right? I had done it a handful of times. I also had lost some money and invested with the wrong people several times too because Okay. When you're starting out, you just have access to maybe all these, like, fake it till you make it operators under one billion dollars of assets, which isn't very much the real estate world. Mhmm. Right? Not until you get above that mark. I mean, I would say institutions are more like five to ten billion in assets and greater. Mhmm. But I, you know, just that was kind of the leap of faith was, like, you know, had some early successes, also a lot of lessons learned and Mhmm. You know, just successes, also a lot of lessons learned and 

Speaker 0

Mhmm. 

Speaker 2

You know, just the the idea of coming to work with my two laptops and doing the the day job and the side gig, which the side gig was getting to be a lot of, high stakes for sure. Yeah. Especially being the person signing on the debt in a lot of those projects. Right. And that was the the issue. It was like, alright. Well, now I have to go on my own. But then I think the big adversity for me personally was paying somebody fifty, a hundred grand to do another job, and then I didn't know what the ROI was. So that's what that's what came quickly. 

Speaker 0

Okay. 

Speaker 2

Everybody is like, oh, I don't wanna spend thirty thousand dollars in a rental property. I don't know what I'm gonna get. Well, the stakes are, like, triple quadruple when you start to hire people, and you don't know what the hell you're gonna get from that person. Right? Because the money just gets vaporized month after month after month. 

Speaker 0

So so speak to that. How did that go? What was that adversity like when you first started hiring and scaling? 

Speaker 2

Well, that I mean, that was it all happened within, like, a couple of years. Right? Here I am. My in my head, I'm justifying, well, I can just stay at this job and make a hundred grand. Mhmm. And, you know, I don't wanna let that go in handcuffs away. Yeah. And then I get rid of that, and now I'm I'm swing it the other way. Now I gotta pay these guys. Yeah. I lost the hundred grand income. Now I gotta go negative a hundred paying these guys to help me do what I need to do. Gotcha. You know? So that I don't think a lot of people I mean, I think entrepreneurs, they typically move through that stage pretty quickly. So I don't think 

Speaker 0

a lot 

Speaker 2

of people talk about this very often. 

Speaker 0

Right. 

Speaker 2

For people who have new business owners or entrepreneurs at that stage, it is a very vital part. I mean, you can't just be a solopreneur 

Speaker 0

and go 

Speaker 2

through this. 

Speaker 0

Team sport for sure. I, and I I always question when people talk about, well, I I'm I'm gonna quit my job when my, you know, side hustle or or real estate investing income matches my w two income. And it's like, that's fine to say, but you're still going to lose your w two income when you quit. So, I mean, it's not like you didn't have both when you quit your w two. So it is there's never some easy, perfect time to to leave. You know? There's always something you're giving up when you walk away from your w two, and, it's not to say you couldn't maybe get another w two if things didn't pan out or something, but, you know, you're you're definitely gonna experience a drop in personal income when you quit your job. So, and then, like you said, there's a lot of pressure on you, and then you're so what specifically what roles were you hiring for that you're talking about? 

Speaker 2

You know, like, all the basic administrative stuff. Gotcha. Real simple stuff. Right? Sure. But that that's kind of like there's a couple avatars out there. Right? Like, if you're making under sixty grand a year, that's pretty easy to replace that stuff. Right? So that's a easy that's zero adversity there, you know? 

Speaker 0

Right. Right. Right. 

Speaker 2

Like, in fact, that's why I think a lot of people who pay all this money to go to these pointless seminars and courses, like, it makes sense for them. Right? I mean, not to take digs at them, but it does make sense. The math makes sense. But if you're making a hundred, two hundred, three hundred thousand dollars a year at your day job, and especially, unfortunately, like, a lot of those professions, it's based off of your years of experience. Right? Mhmm. It's kinda like Sure. I mean, if you also add on, like, the decade plus of school and all that BS and sunk costs with college Mhmm. It's it's like, man, like, you can't get you can't get out of this thing. And then Right. On the side of that is, like, well, my identity was an engineer, and then I gotta tell my parents, like, what the hell do I do? My parents don't even know what I do these days. They think they're just, like, I don't know. They know I'm not an engineer. They don't know. 

Speaker 0

That's good. Right. Yeah. I have trouble explaining to people what, you know, what I do. We run a mortgage note fund, and I'm a real estate investor. Right? Basically, I just say real estate investor, but it's yeah. 

Speaker 2

Yeah. Just tell them, like, a real estate agent. I don't know. I don't care. 

Speaker 0

Do people understand that. Yeah. So walk us through your you know, the rest of so from, say, twenty eighteen through, you know, so for the next seven years, what did it look like for you professionally? 

Speaker 2

Yeah. So I quit at that time, made the leap of faith, started to keep building, and just I I think that the thing to point out is, like, I had already gotten traction couple years prior to this at least, and it was just a rinse, wash, repeat. 

Speaker 0

Mhmm. 

Speaker 2

We we do a deal. Back then, we are buying the little fifty unit crappy class c buildings, and then we were able to step up to bigger buildings as their investor base got bigger. 

Speaker 0

Mhmm. 

Speaker 2

In twenty twenty, when the pandemic happened, we're like, oh, crap. What's gonna happen? Mhmm. Luckily, we all made it through that. Right? And but for us, that was a big growth year because a lot of the institutions pulled back, creating a a gap for us to come in and buy a lot of really priced assets that right now are kind of the jewels of the portfolio. 

Speaker 0

Nice. 

Speaker 2

And then, you know, we went over one billion of assets in that year. 

Speaker 0

In twenty 

Speaker 2

twenty? Twenty twenty. So that was huge. Right? And and for people, like, that's when you're in the industry, people will say, well, that's that's the magical era for any operators. Like, you know, when you start to the first several years, if you're one of the one percent of people out there who happen, it's just luck. Just pure luck. You can't you can't work your way. I mean, you gotta stay in the game and work, but it's to me, it's just luck. 

Speaker 0

Can't control it all. 

Speaker 2

Yeah. The brokers control deals, deal flow. You can't write a stupid yellow letter to a apartment owner. That doesn't work. These guys are idiots. They're they go through brokers, especially if you're buying, like, stabilized assets like how we do. 

Speaker 0

Mhmm. And we 

Speaker 2

don't we wouldn't touch anything that's less than eighty five, eighty percent occupancy. Mhmm. We just we we're not those kinds of operators. 

Speaker 0

Gotcha. 

Speaker 2

So the brokers control the deals, and they're not gonna give it to unproven buyers. Mhmm. So once you establish yourself and get going and have closed a handful of properties 

Speaker 0

Yeah. 

Speaker 2

Man, they just keep feeding you and 

Speaker 0

feeding you. Flywheel, and it just, like, you you've said traction multiple times, but it just compounds on itself, it sounds like. Right? 

Speaker 2

Yeah. Yeah. So that was, like, around, you know, twenty twenty when I can confidently say the flywheel was going at that time. And then, you know, we certainly rolled that. 

Speaker 0

Gotcha. And then, 

Speaker 2

but that yeah. Like, that was just getting we had traction since two thousand and sixteen. We had investors that trusted us. Mhmm. You know, where you whether you call them the fools, families, and, the family, friends, and fools. Right. Yeah. I mean, in a way, like, we were new back then. 

Speaker 0

Mhmm. Sure. Yeah. So did what about you know, I know there's, you know, some concerns about multifamily operators having debt that's coming due that they can't refinance? And have you do you all own any any properties that might give you headaches like that in the coming year or two? 

Speaker 2

Yeah. I mean, for sure. For sure. I mean, if people aren't saying they they have, they're lying. They're completely lying. 

Speaker 0

Mhmm. 

Speaker 2

I mean, twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two was the peak of the market. Mhmm. And since things have come down twenty to thirty percent across the country. Yeah. And if you entered in with bridge debt, you're not going to be able to, you know, refinance at current loan to value standards. Mhmm. So it used to be you'd be able to get, like, leverage at seventy, seventy five percent. Nowadays, you'd be lucky to get it at fifty five, sixty percent. 

Speaker 0

Right. 

Speaker 2

So And and that value 

Speaker 0

may have come down. Right? 

Speaker 2

Plus the value dropped down. Yeah. Right? So the the equity portion is gone. It's been vaporized couple years ago. Mhmm. So that's obviously, like, you know, lessons learned for us too. Right? Luckily, we were established prior to that. Mhmm. But, you know, in every asset class, there are market cycles, unfortunately. You know, stock market has market cycles. Right now, I think we're at the high. Mhmm. Things have been good there. Residential real estate has market cycles there too. Yeah. I'm certainly seeing I mean, I don't I don't follow it that much because I'm on the commercial real estate side and Right. You know, with loans what what created that correction was the loans are on shorter cycles on the on the commercial side. Yeah. Sure. Usually, two, three years for the bridge notes or even the longer notes are five to eight years. Right. Okay. You could have bought a property in two thousand and eighteen, and, unfortunately, you may have to refinance since the worst time possible 

Speaker 0

Right. 

Speaker 2

With the with the forty year high interest rates. But, you know, residential, you know, it has stayed pretty strong. Sure. I am seeing some weakness in places like Florida where the institutions went in a few years ago. 

Speaker 0

Right. Right. 

Speaker 2

Yeah. But I'm not I'm not an expert in residential. Yeah. I'm just you know? 

Speaker 0

Well, it's not and it's it's tough. It's very localized, but you're right. There it's definitely there are definitely some signs of weakness in different different geographic locations for sure. But I do think it might be a longer longer cycle than the commercial cycles are like you like you said. So dive in a little bit more before I get into some more rapid fire questions. What does it look like? What are you all up to today? You own all this real estate. You have two books. You have a podcast. What do you and your business do, you know, get in the weeds a little bit as to what you have going on today? 

Speaker 2

Yeah. I mean, today, like, we we stopped doing multifamily deals, like multifamily value add after their interest rates started to go up in late twenty twenty two. So we didn't we sat on our butts for two years. The reason being is, you know, the prices at that point was still pretty high. Mhmm. Since then, it's come way down. But still, the the interest rates, the Fed rates has created a situation where the loan to values on on loans are super still are aren't very good. They're low. And the interest rates are still high. Right. So with real estate, you need the debt and the price to combo. You need both. Right? Right now the prices are great, but the the debt sucks. So the deals just don't pencil 

Speaker 0

at the 

Speaker 2

end of the day. So, I mean, over the last couple of years, we've been kinda scratching our heads and you know, again but then this is another pivot Mhmm. The way I look at it. Yeah. So we've been pivoting to private equity, buying businesses where you you don't have to rely too much on debt. You can get seller financing, or you can buy these things at such great multiples. I mean, there was a there was a bubble that came out of private equities around the same time as the commercial real estate, bubble too. 

Speaker 0

Okay. 

Speaker 2

So we've been, you know, we we've been on that angle. We've been Okay. A lot of that is more on, like, finding the operator. Right? Like, from our relationships and past groups and even our investor base. Like, a lot of our investors are business owners. So we've been kinda focusing more on that. And the way I Chatham Financial curve and the, you know, the CME guys, the guys who predict interest rates, you know, you guys can just Google their charts. They're they're not predicting interest rates to come under three, four percent, and then we're talking about the Fed rate. 

Speaker 0

Mhmm. Right. Right. 

Speaker 2

They're not predicting that to come down Mhmm. In the next decade. So I think, you know, you and I, we were lucky. We got in at a great time post Yeah. Great recession, but also a time where interest rates were pretty much nothing. 

Speaker 0

For sure. 

Speaker 2

I think the next era, next decade, is gonna be marked by these interest rates that we have now are gonna be here to stay. Mhmm. And perhaps we've lost you know, if you're doing a SWOT analysis, we lost a big tailwind behind our backs. So that's why we're kinda looking elsewhere into, you know, private equity. And, you know, the stuff that you do too, I think that's gonna be making a lot more sense also. People can't get traditional debt financing, so they gotta go to other alternatives. So I would not be opposed to doing a debt fund myself either. Right? Like, I'm just I'm just looking at, like, what is what's happening in the future? What are the dynamics? 

Speaker 0

Yeah. 

Speaker 2

And, like, what strategies work. Right? Mhmm. Like, with traditional financing and banks pulling back, that creates an opportunity or niche for entrepreneurs to fill that. And that's what a debt fund will do. Privatize debt fund. 

Speaker 0

Before again, I do have questions to fire at you, but give one example. You don't have to get too specific, but you're saying some of the passive investors who invest with you all in your syndications, some of the LPs may be business owners, and that may be an opportunity for you to purchase a business if there's a good operator in place. Could you walk through maybe, like, a brief case study what that might look like? 

Speaker 2

Yeah. So this is I mean, it took me a long time to figure this out, but this is essentially how Wall Street, investment bankers work. 

Speaker 0

Okay. 

Speaker 2

You know, you have a deal, you have a business, and you you a lot of these businesses, like, what we're trying to target are things that are just on the on the brink of, you know, doing really, really well or expanding. All they need is freaking money. 

Speaker 0

Well, you right. You mentioned the hockey hockey stick. Right? They're they're right about to explode, but they need money. Right? 

Speaker 2

Right. Right. I didn't wanna use that word because some people have think that's bad, but, you know, we'll we'll go with it. Yeah. We wanna find them before they explode. Right? Or, you know, they maybe they need a million dollars to go buy their their competitor in their market. You know, take them out and buy up the whole market, and they just need that money Mhmm. To Yeah. To do that. And that's where the equity where capital will come in and joint venture on that expansion. 

Speaker 0

Got it. 

Speaker 2

And, you know, generally speaking, you know, it's it's a half half. 

Speaker 0

Mhmm. 

Speaker 2

So if you say, like, you know, you're a plumbing company. Right, Jamie? And then Yeah. We Yeah. You you got your other, competitive full that you wanna buy out for a million dollars, but you don't got the money. Mhmm. Right? 

Speaker 0

Right. I see. Or you 

Speaker 2

maybe you wanna take your chips off the table too. Right? Like, you don't wanna plow you know, you're you're a successful guy. You wanna spend the freaking money. Right. Playing this investor game that we all played in our twenties, thirties, and forties. Yeah. And you and but you still wanna grow your business. Well, a a firm like ours will come in Mhmm. You know, work this deal with you where we come in as your capital, and you're the operator, and we joint venture on profits. 

Speaker 0

Gotcha. Makes a lot of sense. 

Speaker 2

And and this is a very repeatable thing, which I didn't you know, I like, I didn't go to school on the East Coast. I I you 

Speaker 0

know, I 

Speaker 2

was just an engineer. Mhmm. And but this is a very paved process Yeah. In fact. Right. 

Speaker 0

No. I love I love that aspect. And same thing I'll it's one of the things I love about real estate is, yes, there are ways to get creative and and different ways times to pivot like you've alluded to, but probably whatever problem you're dealing with and, you know, whatever solution you're working on, someone else has done it before or some similar version. So there's there's a way to copy, you know, the success their success. 

Speaker 2

Yeah. The the biggest problem, any deal, real estate or or whatever is, like, the people. Right? 

Speaker 0

Yeah. Well, you mentioned the operator. Right? And that's I mean, just in general, finding the good operators. You're absolutely right. I couldn't agree more. It's the people that are drive everything. 

Speaker 2

Yeah. Like, my first fifteen deals I invested as a investor, I've like, a few of the operators. So one out of five. Right? We're just like, shit. Shouldn't have done that. Right? But you don't know unfortunately, you don't know that. And if people who have never done you know, jumped into partnerships before 

Speaker 0

Mhmm. 

Speaker 2

You know, in fact, that's like your marriage maybe. That maybe that would have been your only only chance at a partnership where you jump into bed with each other literally. 

Speaker 0

Right. 

Speaker 2

We all know that doesn't work half of the time. Right? Right. So I'm actually doing better than y'all with one out of five. But, yeah, until until bad things start to happen or adversity Yeah. You know, that's you don't know how a partner is. 

Speaker 0

Mhmm. 

Speaker 2

And I think what we've done is, you know, we've kinda stayed in the game and and gotten over two billion dollars of past deals, and we know who all the we know a lot of the bad people are. Mhmm. And, obviously, we never work with them again. Mhmm. But it's also led us to a situation we know a lot of proven people. Like, you know, a lot of my general partner pals were we've gone to battle with each other, and we trust each other fully. Mhmm. And we know other people who have to and, you know, you start to we start to build this web of people who know each other. And also, like, you know, that's how we also find the current set of future partners. Right? Like, you know, and and investors these days. It's it's all a referral after after a while. Mhmm. And that's that's how we we also vet the people that we do new business with. Right? It just gets better and better as you move along. But Sure. I don't know. I mean, I don't know what what to tell people. Like, unfortunately, you're gonna have to kiss a few frogs 

Speaker 0

when you ever 

Speaker 2

start out. 

Speaker 0

Yeah. No. You can't avoid all the pitfalls. And, yeah. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. So you ready for some rapid fire questions, Lane? 

Speaker 2

Here we go. 

Speaker 0

What is one thing that people misunderstand about you? 

Speaker 2

Think people think I'm like a extrovert because I like to talk a lot. I got a podcast, but I'm quite the introvert. I like I prefer to, you know, be build stronger relationships with less people unless it's like my microphone here, where then I can just, you know Yeah. Broadcast. But, I yeah. I'm more of an operator type Gotcha. End of the day, and I needed I need to surround myself with other partners, that are more on, like, the business development side. Mhmm. 

Speaker 0

That makes sense. Yeah. I can identify with that. It makes sense you would have gone down the engineering track too then. 

Speaker 2

Yeah. The the you know, the hard part is, like, you know, for us that had real jobs Yeah. You spend your twenties and thirties, you gotta kinda do everything, and you gotta stay in somebody else's mode. But when you're an entrepreneur, you actually gotta figure out what you do well and do more of it. If not, you're not gonna survive. 

Speaker 0

Yeah. 

Speaker 2

But now, you know, now getting into my forties, now I'm I finally have the freedom to, like, alright. What is it I do well? I need to start doing more of that. Sure. But, like, man, it's I should have done this a long, long time ago. I wish I had parents who put me in a position where I can figure out what the hell I do good and stop doing the crap I don't like to do, and I'm doing bad. 

Speaker 0

Yeah. That's really good good advice. 

Speaker 2

But Too bad I'm just gonna I'm gonna quit in ten years anyway. So what do you 

Speaker 0

That's funny. Well, looking back, we talked about this a little bit, but what's one of your biggest 

Speaker 2

process was meant to happen 

Speaker 0

Mhmm. 

Speaker 2

Along the way. You know, the the date people say, well, the day job, you spent too much time in there. It's like, well, you know, I learned a lot of I was working for a Fortune fifty company Mhmm. And then the government, several different types of governments. I learned a lot of, you know, about, you know, business processes, SAP back in the day, you know, and and Mhmm. So accounting, why they do things, but also just the empathy of being an employee. Right? Like, I tell my folks all the time, like, look. Just tell me what you guys think. I was the I was a horrible employee, and, like, look. I know how you guys feel and try to make it just try to make it better for you guys. Like, because, like, you know? So that's kinda helped me a lot. Right. And then even, like, you know, the the the turmoil and commercial real estate these past few years Mhmm. You know, wasn't easy. We learned a lot. I probably am the only person under the age of fifty five that has gone through these types of things. One of the few, unfortunately. But it will definitely, change the way we do business in the future and also pivot to maybe even greener pastures. Right? You know, because with real estate, you know, the nice thing is that it's an archaic business. People need a place to live, blah, blah, blah. But when uncontrollable expenses such as in taxes insurance triple on you, there's nothing you can do other than just pay it. And that's where, like, investing in businesses have yes. It's a lot more riskier, but there's so many more levers you can pull. 

Speaker 0

Sure. Makes sense. It's less simple. Yeah. If you could go back and give your eighteen year old self some advice, what would that be? 

Speaker 2

I mean, that's that's why I wrote the book, The Wealth Elevator, essentially. Like, there's different floors to the wealth elevator, and there's different progressions. It's not just get to financial freedom. 

Speaker 0

Right. 

Speaker 2

In the book, I outline, well, first floor is, you know, state being able to save ten, twenty percent. Right? Just basic personal finance. Right. You know, your credit card hacking, but buying rental properties. And that's exactly what I did. Mhmm. I didn't realize that I shouldn't have bought eleven. I should have then stepped up to the syndications and private placement sooner rather than later, and that's the second floor of the wealth elevator. And then what's on the third and fourth? But, like, in in the book, I have this chart Mhmm. Of when you're on the first, when you're on the second, when you're on the third, and what you could generally do. Yeah. I didn't have that. I didn't have a credit investor, parents, or friends. Mhmm. I had to figure this out my my own, and I didn't realize they were stages and gates to the journey. 

Speaker 0

Gotcha. I like that. That's a lot I mean, we we just we want things in, you know, maybe thinking binary ways, and we we want things in two buckets. Like, in the note world, it's either performing notes or nonperforming notes, but there's a ton of gray in between. There are a lot of subperforming or reperforming loans out there. Or I talk about, you know, people wanna be either an active or a passive investor, and it's like, well, there's a lot of there there's a ton of ways in between that you can be kind of a hybrid, you know, or maybe that that, you know, it's not it's not one or the other. So, I I love that that approach that it's maybe it doesn't, you know, the gurus don't like to to claim it like that because it doesn't sell quite as well, but I think it's more real to to admit that there are phases and levels. And so it's not just either, you know, financial freedom or not. Right? 

Speaker 2

Yeah. I mean, there's there's stages to it. Right? Like, the the there's a rule, like, the seventy twenty ten rule where ten percent of it is academics. Mhmm. You know? And maybe that's what you hear on podcasts, which books. 

Speaker 0

Sure. 

Speaker 2

Twenty percent of it is other people. And and that's kinda why, like, I think community is a big thing that people miss. That's what I kinda got right when I paid all this stupid money for these things. Mhmm. I got community, and I was able to bounce ideas off of each other. And if it was in a note community, I would've that's where you kinda learn, well, here are the gray errors. Yeah. You got you got performing, not performing, but what do you do with these hybrids in the middle? Right? Those were those conversations happen. Right. Of course, seventy percent is the doing, getting out there and doing the freaking thing. Sure. You know, like, it's hard if you're trying you know, if you I always think, like, if my kids how do I bring them up through this progression? Right? Like, the ten percent academics learn what the definitions are, what is a perform what is non performing note. Yeah. And then get them in a room with people doing it, bounce out their ideas, but ultimately, you gotta do it. But, you know, you can't just throw them in the water. Right. 

Speaker 0

Right. It doesn't work. Makes sense. What's a challenge that you're facing in your business today that you haven't mentioned already? 

Speaker 2

I think just that what got us here isn't gonna be what gets us to the next place. And the hard thing that I'm in it right now is, like, I don't know. I know you know, we talked a little bit about macroeconomics. Right? How Mhmm. You know, where interest rates are gonna be and how we're gonna play it. The the problem is, you know, you know where you're going, but implementing, getting traction to get to that direction 

Speaker 0

Mhmm. You 

Speaker 2

don't know what's what's going to work to get there. 

Speaker 0

I think 

Speaker 2

and then that can be very costly and take time. And that's where I think, you know, if you have liquidity, you have time and money on your side, and you can take a few attempts to get the shit going in that 

Speaker 0

direction. Some patience. 

Speaker 2

Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, when that's that's hard about being a entrepreneur is, like, oftentimes, you don't have the liquidity to make multiple runs at something. 

Speaker 0

Right. 

Speaker 2

It's it's something like I'm looking at, like, private school for my kids or college. Like, it's, like, fifty, a hundred grand a freaking year, and these guys take five years to go. My goodness. 

Speaker 0

That's right. 

Speaker 2

And I'm like, well, I would kinda rather give them a hundred grand three separate times for them to screw up three times because of the lessons learned in those failures would be good. And then they also have a fourth and fifth failure, right, too that they can they can try again and pivot. Mhmm. I mean, surely somebody will get traction in the sixth, seventh time. Mhmm. Right. I don't know. I'm just thinking, like, what's the best use for my money? Yeah. Bring it to a institutional group or letting my kid have four, five swings at at hitting a a single or a home run. 

Speaker 0

Yeah. That's I like that. Speaking of money, if you were given ten million dollars tomorrow, what would you do with it? 

Speaker 2

I'd buy life insurance, and I would just live off of the four 

Speaker 0

percent and call it good. So you like, whole life, high cash value life insurance? 

Speaker 2

Yeah. Yeah. We I mean, that's part of our our strategies that we teach our folks is the the life insurance. But if you don't have ten million if you don't have four million, you gotta you gotta roll the dice and you gotta, you know, invest and get a higher return. But to me, everybody has the different number for endgame. For most of my clients, it's like four to five million net worth. Once you're there, I mean, you could just whole life life insurance, five four, five percent tax free. I mean It's pretty It's 

Speaker 0

pretty good. 

Speaker 2

Pretty pretty good. Right? I mean, that's kind of the the T bill and chill. I I mean, instead of t bill, we don't do t bills, but we do the life insurance. It's kind of the idea. Right? 

Speaker 0

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, I love it. Is there anything controversial any controversial views you hold with real estate or any, you know, kind of unique approaches you all have taken over the years in your real estate investing? 

Speaker 2

I I mean, if you followed my journey, like, I had, like, ninety, a hundred percent in real estate, my first in my twenties and thirties. That's what got me. Concentrated. Yeah. Yeah. That's everything they teach you not to do. 

Speaker 0

Not to do. Right. 

Speaker 2

Got it. But I also think that if you're somebody who's going from a million to two million dollars or less Mhmm. You have to concentrate what you got because you don't have very much. Right. 

Speaker 0

And, yeah, 

Speaker 2

it's easy if you had ten million dollars and just get, you know, sit back and t bill and chill at four, five percent or life insurance at four, five percent tax free. Like, that's Right. Easy. But Yeah. 

Speaker 0

And it's like, you know, people take love to quote, you know, people like Warren Buffett, and and it's like, that's great. And and but especially when you get more on the personal side, it's like, I'm not sure the average person should be mirroring exactly what he does personally, if if your situation is pretty different. So Yeah. 

Speaker 2

Just using quotes by Warren Buffett. I mean, the guy freaking buys businesses. He's private equity. He's not a stock guy. 

Speaker 0

Right. 

Speaker 2

You know? And Ray Dalio I mean, if you look into Ray Dalio stuff, it he's not all cracked up to be what it is. A lot of the books they that they do for him are puff pieces. Gotcha. Because they're an investment firm. Right? I mean Yeah. And that's that's again, that's why I wrote my book. For the regular guy who's between one to five million dollars 

Speaker 0

Mhmm. And 

Speaker 2

you're, more importantly, the first generation multimillionaire. Mhmm. What do you do to get on that pedestal of five million dollars net worth? 

Speaker 0

Right. 

Speaker 2

It's you can take what it's like the Bible. Hope I don't know if anybody with this. But the with the Bible, like, you can take a lot of these things and apply it many, many different ways. Even that Rich Dad Poor Dad book. Right. All of the the the the quotes or the, you know, quotable things can be taken multiple directions. 

Speaker 0

Sure. That's true. Yeah. That's true. And as we're wrapping up here, speaking of books, what is a book or two that you could recommend, Lane? 

Speaker 2

I would say if you're a new investor, Gary Keller, million man millionaire real estate investor That's 

Speaker 0

a great one. 

Speaker 2

Yeah. Good fundamentals book. 

Speaker 0

Yeah. Mhmm. 

Speaker 2

But I think people read too many books. Mhmm. You know, they should just go out there and do it. 

Speaker 0

Awesome. That's good. That's good advice. What's one question that you wish I'd asked that I have not asked? Anything you wanna cover before we get out of here? 

Speaker 2

I guess what I would say is just we talked a lot about stuff today, but it depends on where you are at. Mhmm. You know, if you're don't have very much money and you make under fifty, a hundred grand per year, you have to be an entrepreneur. There is no other way. Mhmm. If you make over a hundred grand, two hundred grand per year, you got some choices, and those choices are gonna be difficult. I walk that path. Mhmm. 

Speaker 0

Right. 

Speaker 2

Nothing's wrong about being, you know, more of a passive investor. But if you are, make sure you're investing in good deals with good operators, do your due diligence, learn how to do due diligence. You don't need to understand how the the box works inside, but you need to understand how to evaluate the black box from the outside. Mhmm. I'll apply some infinite banking strategies and then get good on your taxes. And that trifecta is kinda what what I kinda focus on for passive investors trying to optimize and go live your life. You know, the goal is four or five million dollars net worth. Mhmm. Why and that's why I'm like, you in a way, making a business like, when you make a business, you're gonna try and way overshoot four, five million dollars. Mhmm. You're trying to go for ten, twenty, fifty million dollars net worth by the end of your lifetime. Mhmm. For 

Speaker 0

a 

Speaker 2

lot of people who are more pragmatic, that's, like, way too much. All I'm doing is wasting my time. If you read the book, Die with Zero, it's stupid to start a business. Just try and brace up to where you wanna be and just enjoy. 

Speaker 0

Yeah. That's good advice. 

Speaker 2

But if you make under fifty grand a year, you're screwed. So roll the dice and be an entrepreneur. 

Speaker 0

There you go. Lane Kowaoka, where can people find you online? 

Speaker 2

They can check out my new book, The Wealth Elevator on Amazon. And then if you guys buy the book, shoot me an email. We can send you the PDF and the MP three to accompany it. 

Speaker 0

Awesome. Well, this has been great. This has been really, really fun. I've enjoyed the, it's been a very chill, but also super informative and and inspiring conversation. So, I definitely, appreciate you coming on, Lane, spending some time with us. 

Speaker 2

Yeah. Thanks for having me. 

Speaker 0

Absolutely. And to the listener, thank you for spending your most valuable resource with us, and that is your time. Thanks, everyone. Take care. 

Speaker 1

Thank you for joining us on From Adversity to Abundance. We hope today's episode has equipped you with valuable insights and practical advice to elevate your real estate journey. For more inspiring stories and resources, visit us at w w w dot adversity to abundance dot com. If this episode has inspired you, please share it with a friend who could also benefit from our conversation. Together, let's turn adversity into abundance. Until next time, keep building your mental fitness and your real estate empire. 

Speaker 0

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